Episode 26 – Living on Purpose: Transforming Leadership and Life with Amy Wong

Todd Bertsch: 0:10

Welcome back to the Bolt Podcast. I’m Todd Bertsch and I’m thrilled to be your guide on this inspiring journey of personal growth and leadership. Together with my guests, we’ll dive into transformational stories, uncovering how small, intentional changes can create massive positive results in your life. From overcoming challenges and setting impactful goals to building lasting habits and living with confidence, health, and positivity. We’ll explore it all and, if you’re ready, to embrace a growth mindset, and unlock the best version of yourself, then let’s spark that transformation today.

Todd Bertsch: 0:46

Today’s guest is Amy Wong, an award-winning author and expert on leadership, who helps organizations harness the power of connection to unlock breakthrough performance and create winning teams. Drawing from her unique background in mathematics and transpersonal psychology and two decades in Silicon Valley, she has developed methodologies that create thriving cultures at organizations like LinkedIn, salesforce and Meta. Amy teaches communication and leadership courses at Stanford University Continuing Education and is the author of Living on Purpose. Amy shows how trust, alignment and exceptional communication create the conditions for individual fulfillment and organizational success. Listeners, get out your notebooks. This is going to be so damn good, amy. Welcome to the Bolt Podcast, my friend.

Amy Wong: 1:37

Thanks, Todd. I’m stoked for our conversation. We’re going to have fun.

Todd Bertsch: 1:41

Oh yeah, we have, oh my gosh, the biggest challenge. There is so much to talk through today, but let’s just do the best we can with it, right, let’s do it, yes, so why don’t we just jump in? I would love I always like to set it up with a little background in history, because you have a very interesting background. Well, we all have an interesting story, right, but I find yours to be very interesting. So maybe the cliff notes of some of the challenges and obstacles you faced, and a little bit about just how you got to the place of being a leadership expert speaking, talking, coaching, all the things.

Amy Wong: 2:17

There’s a lot to. There’s a lot here.

Todd Bertsch: 2:19

I know there’s a lot.

Amy Wong: 2:21

Pick out a couple of nuggets, say cliff notes. So because I struggled as a kid, early academically, because I was really young for my grade, I hated math, it was so hard, and then my dad made me retake it Algebra 1 in ninth grade, and then there was just something magical about retaking it and I think maybe my development and the curriculum clicked and then all of a sudden I so got it, and because I so got it and I saw how elegant and amazing I just it ignited something in me and interestingly, it was around this time, you know, because I had just I’d known how painful it was to not understand, because I was just there a year prior, I’d look at my friends around me and they weren’t getting it and I just wanted to help and I think because I was just there I could listen to their question, but really more.

Amy Wong: 3:15

I was listening to connect with them just as much as I was listening to help solve the problem. And I didn’t realize it. But starting in ninth grade I started developing a skill that would be a through line through the rest of my life and it was really listening for the things that people didn’t know, that they didn’t know. Because I recognize that’s where we get stuck is it’s not the stuff we know and it’s definitely not what we don’t know, because we can solve all that. It’s the stuff we don’t know, that we don’t know. So I became voraciously hungry to learn more math and to help people in more ways around this, and so I started a tutoring business and I also play piano and so it was a piano teaching business and so it just like took off through high school and college and then ended up at Sun Microsystems. And so because of my background, because I studied math at UC Berkeley and you know I was they had a bit of a technical background, but I would end up in a lot of program management roles and I was very people facing roles but would be focusing on tech, heavy things, and, and again I would be translating. And that’s really started to recognize like, wow, I’ve got this ability to translate and lead people through these complex challenges or to get them on board with some initiative. And so I I was doing that for 10 years and and in all departments of sun and you know various levels, and so a lot of exposure to everything corporate, everything, silicon Valley that was my life for 10 years.

Amy Wong: 4:39

And then, after I had my first child, who’s now 16, and I had a total breakdown and I recognized it’s just because I thought I knew who I was, but I didn’t. And so through that identity paralysis came a huge breakthrough and I recognized that there was a whole other part of me I wasn’t attending to, and so I committed to just listening to my inspiration. And here’s what’s funny my husband laughs at this, right, because here I’m a mathematician and I completely decide I’m like that’s it, I’m dumping logic, I’m only going for inspiration, I’m going to only follow what feels right instead of what sounds reasonable. And so, as a mathematician, I completely shifted gears and I’m like nope, I’m just going to listen for what feels great, and it was a big risk, but man did it pay off and that to me was the secret sauce of really what purpose and meaning is.

Amy Wong: 5:32

And so that led me to the field of transpersonal psychology, which and it’s so funny because folks are like, how do you end up with math and transpersonal psychology? So I’ve got a master’s in transpersonal psychology and really it was my heart that said you must study this, because it really spoke to something that’s been inside of me all of my life, because I’ve been so fascinated by the big conversations meaning truth. I mean, why would one study math otherwise right. And so what was kind of cool was that you know, I’ve got this infant and I’m getting my graduate degree.

Amy Wong: 6:00

What I don’t recognize is I’m balancing out my brain because you know, I studied pure math at Berkeley, and so that’s a very rigorous exercise in a mastery of logic, right and pattern recognition and extracting meaning in an irrefutable, objective way. But then transpersonal psychology is very nonlinear, very subjective, very, you know, can be contradictory, and so to master this as well and then bring it together, you know, can be contradictory, and so to master this as well and then bring it together. That’s when coaching found me, and so that was in 2010.

Amy Wong: 6:29

And it just that took off like wildfire and it was almost like yep, this is what you’ve been meant to do is help people in this way and of course I can see that through line, starting in ninth grade I mean honestly, even earlier than that, right, because you just but it all now makes sense and so all of my exposure to the corporate life. You know I worked at IDEO, you know, in a coaching and culture, designing capacity and just really kind of working. You’re just kind of staying with that and so now it’s so. Now I focus on all things leadership as it pertains to communication, communication as it pertains to leadership, because it only leadership only really happens through this medium.

Amy Wong: 7:10

And so this medium of communication is where I’m really fascinated and where I do most of my work with founders and executives and organizations.

Todd Bertsch: 7:18

Wow, that is amazing. I love that. Yeah, it is so interesting to have somebody that’s so involved in math to go into psychology. But you so you’re living on purpose. You found your purpose and that is boy. That is beautiful, isn’t it?

Amy Wong: 7:32

Thank you. It is Honestly I I am so excited to wake up every day. I mean to the point where I actually like getting up at four, four, 30, because I’ve got so many wonderful things to do. You know, it’s as I’m in love with life. I really feel like I live a miracle every day. Right, I know Because there’s just so much meaning in every part of it, yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 7:50

Yeah, do you have a gratitude practice that you have in the morning?

Amy Wong: 7:53

It’s. You know, I would say it’s, it’s so a part of who I am that it’s it’s pretty much a permanent filter. But yeah, practice is, is something that, uh, you know, I have a. I heard this from Joe Dispenza and I love it. I use it all the time. I’ve got a date with the divine every morning, you know, with my meditation practice. But that’s a huge overt part of it is embodying that sense of gratitude. Yeah, it’s a permanent lens, so gratitude is a big part of almost every moment.

Todd Bertsch: 8:19

Yeah, yeah, you’ve laid that track right. You’ve rewired your brain.

Amy Wong: 8:23

Yeah, yeah, awesome Good for you, thank you.

Todd Bertsch: 8:26

It’s awesome. I know I’ve kind of been through some transition as well and I feel like I found my purpose and I’m the same thing. I’m waking up every every morning. It’s just beautiful and I’m looking forward to it. I’m like man to find my purpose. I think it’s important for people to realize you can find this at any point in time and you may go down some different paths, but you can see that through line, like you mentioned.

Amy Wong: 8:47

Yeah, yeah, and what I help folks consider is that sometimes this idea of purpose can feel so overwhelming because it feels like such a big, high stakes discovery, like what is my purpose, my reason for being and a lot of times folks think that it’s a noun, like oh, it’s this role or it’s this function that I’m here to serve in the world. But what I’ve decided is that purpose is really for me, it’s a way of being, it’s a way of being in the world that I get to just embody in most of my moments.

Amy Wong: 9:20

And if I think about purpose in that way, that it’s a way of being versus some like role, like to you know to create, you know to fix climate change or something I don’t know. But if you think about it as a way of being, it could feel more I don’t know like there’s just more possibility there.

Todd Bertsch: 9:41

Yeah, absolutely. I’m actually reading a book right now and you’re probably familiar with it. Have you heard of the Japanese philosophy Ikigai?

Amy Wong: 9:47

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I’m actually reading a book, right now and you’re probably familiar with it.

Todd Bertsch: 9:51

Have you heard of the Japanese philosophy Ikigai? Yeah, yes, absolutely so, that’s all about the state of being and living in purpose. I absolutely love that, yeah, and those folks that live in that blue zone that live over a hundred years old. Because they’ve practiced this for centuries.

Amy Wong: 10:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s really cool. And so Ikigai, it’s funny, like you know, for listeners, if they’re listening, it’s um, I don’t know. There’s a way in which I think about it and I talked to my kids about this a lot, because I have a 16 year old and a 12 year old, right, and they’re do you remember those ages?

Amy Wong: 10:16

I have a 13 year old yeah, you know right, and so it’s the parenting man, it’s not for sissies, um, and you know, at this age it’s no less, it’s no less wonderfully absorbing. It’s just different conversations with a different kind of energy. But you know they they’re wrestling with you know what? What do I need to be focusing on for the rest of my life? And I’ve always told them I’m like, look, you know, think I think the sweet spot is between these, these three things, like you want to find something you absolutely love to do.

Amy Wong: 10:46

You want to be really freaking good at it, and then the world needs to need it, so like, if you can think about what you’re up to through these lenses, like you want to love what you’re doing and you want to be really masterful and at the same time there needs to be, you know, the world kind of needs to need it, Then then that’s the sweet spot. And so you know, we we talk about that a lot in our household.

Todd Bertsch: 11:07

Yeah, wow, really Wow, and I feel bad that I’m not talking about that my 13 year old daughter you know she doesn’t want to talk about that she she makes fun of me and my podcast and manifestation again, dad. Really I’m like it’s soaking in, believe me you’ll.

Amy Wong: 11:27

you’ll get it someday. That’s right, that’s right.

Todd Bertsch: 11:29

Yeah, very cool. Well, this is a great segue into this amazing book. I don’t know if you can see it here. Um, living on purpose, oh my gosh. So I picked this up, amy, about a month ago, and I went through it. I have literally. So this is when I know it’s a good book. Yeah, so I have about five pages of notes, so to me that’s when you got a good book, right, wow.

Amy Wong: 11:56

Thank you. Yeah, it is a compliment. I’m honored.

Todd Bertsch: 12:00

Yes, well, you know it is what it is. I mean, this is truth and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. There are so many nuggets in there that I want to dig into. I totally related to everything that you were saying and I took away some really interesting concepts that I wasn’t aware of, or maybe I just needed to be reminded of. So let’s spend some time talking about this amazing book. Some time talking about this amazing book five deliberate choices to realize fulfillment and joy.

Amy Wong: 12:28

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 12:29

Five, only five. Yeah, that seems, that seems achievable.

Amy Wong: 12:34

Totally, totally.

Todd Bertsch: 12:35

Right yeah, so you want to. You want to hit on those five, absolutely Just briefly.

Amy Wong: 12:40

So, absolutely, you know. So the book itself it’s about being on purpose. And just to help people understand, like, yes, I’d like to talk about purpose as a noun or like maybe a way of being, but really, what I get really excited about is this idea of being on purpose, which really is about choosing to be in the driver’s seat of your own life, being awake, being intentional awake, being intentional, harnessing choice in its most profound way. And when I say that, what I mean is harnessing choice at the perceptual level, not at the action level, right and like. So, as we go through our day, we are bombarded with choices, and what we choose absolutely determines everything. It determines our experience, it determines our emotions, it determines our destiny, what we focus on, what we choose to do, what we choose to say. Our choices are up to us and our choices determine our reality as we experience it. And so where I’ve found we get the most bang for our buck isn’t being diligent at the level of action.

Amy Wong: 13:48

So, for example, it’s lunchtime. I’m going to choose. I’ve got two options here. I can either have this really nourishing salad or I can have this really greasy hamburger. Like, okay, which choice do I want to make? Which is going to serve me better. Well, I mean, it’s up to you. That choice is interesting, but it’s not nearly as interesting to me as the choice point of when we’re at the perception. And that means how am I going to choose to perceive this, how am I going to choose to interpret this, how am I going to choose to believe? Right Therefore determines what I think, say and do. So these five choices really speak to that, that that juncture, that choice point at the level of perception. So that’s what those, those five choices are. So those five deliberate choices are perceptual choices that we can take on to flourish right, to lessen a lot of the unnecessary drama and resistance and unnecessary suffering, because one of the things I know for a fact is I am here on earth truly to help people break free from their self-imposed limitations. I know that.

Amy Wong: 14:57

Like to me, freedom and possibility is absolutely what I stand for. It’s what gets me up in the morning, and so, to help people awaken from the patterns they’ve taken on that they don’t even realize they have, that’s keeping them from a life of joy and meaning and purpose and connection and presence. And what’s so great is we don’t have to go do anything differently, we don’t have to go achieve more things, because actually that’s a trap. It’s not about making more money, it’s not about that promotion, it’s not about that house on the hill with a view. I mean, all that stuff’s nice, but our freedom that we’re seeking and our joy and our peace of mind that we’re seeking is not found in the stuff. It’s found in how we relate to the stuff which is, via our lens, our focus, and so that’s what these five choices speak to.

Todd Bertsch: 15:44

Yeah, Wow, I love that. And we make 30,000 choices any given day. Yeah, that’s the data. That’s a lot of freaking choices, right.

Amy Wong: 15:57

You know it’s interesting. So our kids were in Waldorf when they were young and I remember my son’s kindergarten teacher. She helped, she, she, she helped us, she. She coached me through a parenting moment where you know my son was. I don’t even remember what prompted it, but she said hey, look, when they’re young, like you know two, three, four, stop giving them choices Like do you want pancakes for breakfast? Do you want waffles for breakfast? Do you want to wear the blue shirt? Do you want to wear the red shirt? Right? And as parents, we think we’re doing right by our children by empowering them with choice. She goes it’s too much, just give it to them Right. And she goes think about how taxed you are in a day with all the choices you have to make, and you know, and if you’re stressed out trying to figure out between salad and hamburger, how do you think your poor child feels with this underdeveloped brain, you know? And you’re like, oh my gosh, that’s revolutionary. We need to be, we need to be sharing this more.

Todd Bertsch: 16:52

Yeah, yeah, I just did a whole podcast episode, a solo cast, devoted to decision fatigue, because it’s it’s for real. Because of all the decisions we make and all the options, right, just going to Amazon and reviewing 500 reviews on a singular product, I can’t even make a decision. I’m paralyzed. So, yeah, there’s Barry Schwartz has a great book on it. It’s yeah, it’s very interesting. I’m all about the power of choice and so I like what you’re saying there.

Amy Wong: 17:22

Awesome.

Todd Bertsch: 17:24

I would love to pull out just a few concepts of the book.

Amy Wong: 17:28

Let’s do it. Yeah, look what your favorite ones.

Todd Bertsch: 17:30

That resonated with me that I think our listeners would latch onto as well. You talk about duality a lot. And I was like all right, I love this. Now you’re speaking my language, let’s talk a little bit about that.

Amy Wong: 17:43

What is?

Todd Bertsch: 17:43

duality to you. Talk a little bit about that. What?

Amy Wong: 17:45

is duality to you? Well, when I zoom out and look at our existence, I observe that our existence is predicated on duality, and what I mean is that, in order to have light, we need dark. There is no concept of light without the concept of dark. In order for there to be birth, there is death. In order for there to be joy, there is sadness. Right, we can’t know joy unless we know sadness. We can’t know sadness unless we know joy. And so duality is what makes any one thing distinct in and of itself from something else. And so duality is a necessary phenomenon in existence. And you know, the creative process requires both the light and the dark, and our lives are predicated on the light and the dark, the ups and the downs, the goods and the bads. And you know, I think it’s human nature to want to feel good all the time. You know, I’m having a heck of a time trying to find one study that actually proves that, but you know the philosophies and ancient wisdom traditions and you know, most fields of psychology could probably agree that.

Amy Wong: 18:59

You know well, human nature is one in which we want to feel good. We’re driven to feel good, and so we seek that out, and I have found that it’s easy to just want to focus on the good. And so there’s something I don’t write about the book. So this is I’m going to share something that came to me after I published the book was you know, we tend to like to focus on growth on purpose, right? Because we’re always growing as humans. We’re always growing, whether we like it or not. Why? Because we’re exposed to things, we’re experiencing things. We’re always growing, and whether we like the way in which we’re growing, that’s to be determined, but we’re always growing.

Amy Wong: 19:35

And so, as humans, we tend to want to just focus on the growth on purpose stuff, the stuff I intended, the stuff I wanted, the stuff that was successful, the stuff that came together in the way that I was hoping or expecting. What we don’t like to focus on is the growth on accident, right? Those are the failures and the mishaps and the tragedies and the unexpected obstacles. We tend to look at that and say there’s something wrong with me since that happened, but the truth is that stuff’s unavoidable, life happens, and so there’s an opportunity to embrace both growth on purpose and growth by accident. And when we can harness both and honor both, then something pretty amazing happens in terms of our ability to flourish, because we lessen the resistance to our experience. But I don’t know about you, but in my case most of my growth comes from here the growth by accident.

Todd Bertsch: 20:31

Right.

Amy Wong: 20:32

Yeah, and it’s, and it’s. It’s never fun in the moment, and so, as you know, in my book I I titled the chapter manure makes beautiful blossoms Right, and so I love that. So, instead of calling them crap moments, right, and we, we tend to say you know, this is just I say you know, this is just.

Todd Bertsch: 20:51

You know, you can say it right.

Amy Wong: 20:52

Okay, good, so this is shit. It’s like, well, what if it’s not shit, what if it’s manure? And you tend to look at those things Like when you live this way, you extract the gifts and the learnings way more than if you had spent pushing against it, and so I just I embrace this idea that that both are necessary, both are welcome, and the practice is to not resist when things look like shit and just see it’s manure, it’s manure.

Todd Bertsch: 21:19

Yeah, no, I absolutely love that. You know, and I love the way that you explain in the book. You say you don’t know what you like until you know what you don’t like, and that, just that just hit home for me. Yeah, that hit home for me. I was like, damn, that’s good, because when you phrase it like that, it makes it seem more relatable that I need those things because I want the like, I don’t want the don’t like. But if you tell me that in order to get to the like, I have to experience a don’t like, it seems like it’s okay. Then that’s right. That’s what I loved about that the way that you explain that concept. And I’m a. I’m a huge fan of Bruce Lee I don’t know if you are and his, his daughter, shannon Lee, wrote one of my favorite books, be Water, my Friend.

Amy Wong: 22:02

Yes, I have it right here. Oh, you do. Yeah right here.

Todd Bertsch: 22:08

My gosh it is. I absolutely love that book. I think I have 10 pages of notes. It’s just crazy. But what I love about that is number of things. But one of the concepts she talks about with her dad is yin yang and how he referred to yin yang and it’s very similar to how you’re approaching it, which is, we need both. We need the good and the bad, right, they’re tied to the hip.

Amy Wong: 22:31

So we can go on and on about that, but Well, I’ll say thank you and I’ll say you know, where I’ve found that it’s really helpful is when we take that wisdom and truth and shine it back on ourselves, because where I have found so much relief and growth for me is recognizing that for me to know who I am, I have to know who I’m not. And so all of those experiences that I’ve gone through, that have been painful, that have been quote unquote, let’s say remorseful or shameful right, that would be labeled as such. It’s like, wait a minute, you know, this is life, these things that I’ve gone through. In order for me to know who I am and claim who I know I’m meant to be, I have to actually know who I’m not too, and so it just it’s helped. And so when we apply to this, it just helps grow self-compaction and again extract those gifts that are there for us in life experiences.

Todd Bertsch: 23:25

Oh yeah, you’re pulling out some Scherzada there. Find a gift and opportunity in every scenario.

Amy Wong: 23:30

That’s right. That’s right. Positive intelligence baby.

Todd Bertsch: 23:33

Yeah, that’s right, I’m all about that, yes.

Amy Wong: 23:36

Yes.

Todd Bertsch: 23:37

And that is that is. You know, when I present. That is the one slide I tell everyone if you’re going to take one nugget out of this presentation, take a picture of that right there. Find the gift and opportunity in every situation. If you can reframe right, it’s all about reframing. If you can reframe and come into a scenario with an open mind, an empty cup, as Bruce says, it’s beautiful. It changes the way you see everything. You change your lens.

Amy Wong: 24:03

That’s right, that’s it.

Todd Bertsch: 24:10

It’s a very powerful perceptual choice that puts us on the path of thriving.

Amy Wong: 24:11

Yeah, that’s it, it’s all about a mindset, and you know what I tell folks. Are these truths? I don’t know. Is this objectively true the way we need to be operating in the world? I don’t know. But it sure makes for a pleasant and fruitful and productive and joyful and purposeful experience. And so, you know, is any of this stuff that we’re up to right?

Todd Bertsch: 24:30

I don’t know, but it works, it is, it is, it is right. I mean it works, yeah, yeah, right. I mean you’re helping people find fulfillment, happiness and joy, and I’m doing the same thing.

Amy Wong: 24:42

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 24:43

And therefore we are.

Amy Wong: 24:44

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 24:45

I mean, how blessed are we to be able to have this be our job. It’s really great. So many others, amy, you talk about at your core. You’re complete. Yes, I love that. I mean that is a very, very powerful statement that I think a lot of people should take note and really think about what we have, and I’ve started integrating that into my presentations.

Todd Bertsch: 25:09

Actually, and just telling people like I can give you all the tools, the resources and the world. You have to make the choice, but you know what you have. Everything you need, that’s right, and you just need to chip away just like a sculptor would with a piece of marble.

Amy Wong: 25:24

Right, that’s right, you have it, you have it, you have it, you have it.

Amy Wong: 25:29

Yeah, and I spend a fair like. So part three in the book is really about it’s helping people come to the decision that that is likely true. And so this is where my math background comes in believe it or not? Because if you know, in my, in my world, if I can’t come up with an irrefutable argument to help you, you know, argument to help you really decide that this is true, then this is probably not very helpful. And so I spend a really good amount of time in the book in part three to say, look, you do have an option to decide to know that you’re already complete. But let’s break down why you have that ability and you have that. You are entitled to that right. Because it’s.

Amy Wong: 26:09

I find it’s not enough to just say, hey, guess what? You’re complete, go for it. It’s like wait. But that doesn’t feel true to me. Why? Because I have 20, 30, 40 years of experience of proof. That actually conflicts with that thought, and so I’m not going to look at all that evidence and say, oh yeah, I can tell myself I’m complete when everything I’m observing says that I’m not Right. And so that’s actually an interesting phenomenon and that’s why in the book I break down like we have to look at this and like the nature of proof, how this works, so that you can derive for yourself that choice point.

Amy Wong: 26:46

And I tell folks you know, when I’m doing this work in any kind of capacity, whether it’s, you know, an offsite or a workshop or even just coaching, I’ll say look, you know, I could imagine that you know, you like. I’ll say you, todd, I can imagine that you get that you’re choosing your beliefs. Most people say yeah, and I’d say, and I get that you’re probably aware that you’re choosing to believe stuff that doesn’t serve you. And you’d be like, yeah, that’s true, like you know that I’m not worthy in this moment or I’m not good enough or I’m you know. It’s like we take on these beliefs and then I say you know, and I bet you get that you’re choosing this, but you have no idea how to choose otherwise. And that’s where people are like, yes, and I’m like that’s what’s possible when you understand and can derive. And so that’s why I spell out part three is I want to get you to that place where that choice is accessible, to choose, to know you’re complete, like, otherwise it’s just wordplay.

Amy Wong: 27:48

But to get to accessible choice, we kind of have to break down the logic and the argument and you kind of have to see the four. You have to see how this works, and so it’s. I get so fired up about this because can you imagine, when more people know their innate wholeness, so much changes because all of a sudden, now we’re not threatened, now we don’t need to prove ourselves Right, and if we know our wholeness, we see other people’s wholeness and so we’re naturally more compassionate. It’s like this is actually what solves the suffering in the world. Right, yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 28:19

Yeah, I think that goes ties into what you say. A lot choose to know not believe yeah your worth, say a lot, choose to know not. Believe yeah your worth, yeah, right, and it’s. I love how you frame and you, you. You talk a lot about freedom. I never really thought about it like that.

Todd Bertsch: 28:32

Cause I’m always thinking about growth and results, but freedom is a, I think, a really great way to reframe this and you’re breaking away from and you, you focus a lot talking about the inner opposition, yeah, right, and really, and I think that is breaking free from the change, the chains. You focus a lot talking about the inner opposition, right, and really, and I think that is breaking free from the change, the chains, the lens that you’ve worn for so many years because of whatever incident happened, like when your mom took you to kindergarten or whatever, and you’re like, oh damn, what am I going to do? My mom’s never coming back. But whatever that is for, for each person there is something from childhood and we unfortunately carry that damn damn lens with us all the way through adulthood unless we commit to a choice to say, maybe I need to look through this, I can change. I don’t think a lot of people realize that they’re stuck with the old lens and that they can change and see through a new lens.

Amy Wong: 29:32

That’s right. The way I’ve narrated this and made sense of what we’re talking about here is that, and what gives me actually great meaning is to believe and I’ll say believe, I might even say choose to know that there is a moment for us humans where we separate from who we are. It’s the birth of our false self, that where inner opposition emerges right, and it’s often the first experience of perceived significant rejection. And so that’s the psyche and the brain’s way and the nervous system’s way, like, okay, I got to protect you from this forevermore, so why didn’t you make these decisions about who you are, which is actually not true? And so we separate from ourself. And then we live from that false self, as you said, and like for years, we are kind of, we are, we are within this facade of the false self and it’s suffering.

Amy Wong: 30:21

And what I’ve decided is you know, I could look at that and feel like this is a tragedy and like, gosh, what a bummer thing. And let’s, let’s try to prevent this from happening for all humans. But then there’s a part of me that says but it’s exactly this that allows us to choose to know who we are Because, and for me to actively claim who I am in the world, I kind of have to know who I’m not. Who I am in the world, I kind of have to know who I’m not, so that separation of self gives me the opportunity to actively choose to come back home, because to me that is where life is lived. I don’t know if I want to float around involuntarily in this like, oh, I’m just all great and there’s no that would be boring, but to actively choose who I am because I know who I’m not.

Amy Wong: 31:09

I think that’s the gift that life presents, if we choose to wake up, if we choose that the pain of separation of who we really are is enough to do something about it. Now, where I think it is a tragedy that there are many humans that don’t wake up in their life, in their lifetime, and they in their lifetime and they don’t, and they don’t see that there’s an option to come back home to who they are.

Todd Bertsch: 31:31

Yeah, so that’s, that is what it said, but but we’re always presented with that possibility in that option absolutely, and that’s what I’m most interested in and that’s what my book, which I’m happy to tell you that I have committed and I’m working on the concept which I believe is going to be wrapped around curiosity, and that, to me, you know, I looked at all the research and all the things that I’ve experienced and I, you know, through mind mapping, came back to this, the same concept. It all comes down to curiosity and we all had it at one point. That’s that inner child. It goes back to, you know, being five years old and not being afraid to get on that bike, which was scary as hell, yeah, you know, but you had your mom or dad or uncle, tommy, or whoever was going to train you to ride that bike and get your feet off the ground and just go, but you did it right.

Todd Bertsch: 32:25

So we all have the innate ability to change and we are genuinely curious people, but we lose that curiosity because we grow up and we get in a freaking box, right? So, anyhow, I want to go about that.

Amy Wong: 32:39

We could have so much fun with this conversation, because actually that is the biggest challenge in leadership is when oh yeah, but just in collaborating with humans in general is leaning in the direction of conclusion versus curiosity, and that’s where we experience so much unnecessary.

Todd Bertsch: 32:59

That’s the open mindset. Right, that’s the open mindset. Carol’s work, yeah, yeah, awesome, awesome, well, should or should we? The worst word ever. I literally I LOL’d. I don’t know if my wife heard me when I was reading, cause I usually read at night and got to the chapter about I should you not. And I’m just like saying it to myself and I’m picturing you, cause once I got to that chapter, you and I had already had a conversation, so I kind of got a sense of your personality and I just can imagine you writing this chapter. I should you not damn it, but talk a little bit how you got there.

Amy Wong: 33:38

When I came up with that title, I was so proud of myself.

Todd Bertsch: 33:42

Right, were you like, I got it, aha Like.

Amy Wong: 33:45

Oh, and I just yeah that that was such a, that was such a juicy, delicious moment. That’s a t-shirt right there, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is, it really is, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is no this, but the. I’m very passionate about this, so much so that, um, yeah, I talk a lot often about this because I find we no this, but I’m very passionate about this, so much so that I talk a lot often about this because I find, when you understand the inner mechanics and how do I put it, the structure that should sits upon right, and when we wake up to the hidden cost of this very pervasive habit that many of us subscribe to, because it’s just how we’ve been conditioned to motivate ourselves to have a good life, right, I should pay my bills, I should work out, I should eat vegetables, I should actually get to bed earlier, I should, you know, spend more time with my kids. I should, I should, should, should, should, should. And we use it as a way to live the good life, and we don’t question it because it’s so pervasive. Live the good life and we don’t question it because it’s so pervasive, but the truth is there is a tremendous cost and we innately get that because, jokingly, well, you know you might’ve heard, like don’t shoot on yourself, and you know, don’t you know dump the shoulds, and and so you know, and there’s even, like, there’s quite a few posts out there on social about, you know, like don’t use shoulds. But really where the conversation tends to stop is, yeah, because it doesn’t feel great, you know it’ll make you feel guilty, it’ll make you feel this.

Amy Wong: 35:15

Where I got really curious was why is that the case? What is it about this force of the word? That’s, that’s really unideal. And so I dove deeply into this and in fact, this is what I’m going to be speaking about on April 3rd, and what. Okay, so what is this idea that I’m bringing to the table? Because, you know, we’re all kind of, I hate to say, brainwashed, but we’re kind of brainwashed by this word and way of motivation and we don’t question it. What’s going on here? And you see the true cost and how it is subtle sabotage, and you understand how to navigate. Opposite of this, we unlock so much creative ability, we access greater states of joy and positivity which, through the broaden and build theory and positive psychology, we have more access to options and possibility, and so we can these biggest problems that we’re dealing with if we shift our orientation. So, yeah, I get fired up about this.

Amy Wong: 36:34

As you can see, I so much, so I wrote a chapter about it.

Todd Bertsch: 36:37

Right, yeah, and now you got to get it down to 14 minutes.

Amy Wong: 36:40

That’s right. That’s right, I can do it. I can do it. I can do it.

Todd Bertsch: 36:44

Yes, you can manifest that baby, you got it. Wow, I can do it. I can do it, I can do it. Yes, you can manifest that baby, you got it. Wow, so excited for you. That is, that is so awesome. I can’t wait to watch it. That’d be awesome If I could be there in person. Um, where’s it going to be at? In Stanford, stanford, yeah, awesome.

Amy Wong: 36:59

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate your support. It’s been very exciting.

Todd Bertsch: 37:03

Yeah, that’s awesome. So let’s talk a little bit about I know we’re running out of time here, but I needed to get into conversational intelligence, yes, yeah, because I know that’s a big piece of your program and your speaking. So tell us a little bit about what it is. Actually, that was kind of a new term to me, if I’m being honest. Yeah, so I realized that it’s actually out there. Judith Glazier, that’s right. Did I pronounce that? Right? He’s the founder and it’s a registered trademark.

Todd Bertsch: 37:34

I mean, I was like she’s got an R on that. I had to look into that a little bit. So, anyhow, I think this is interesting. I don’t know if any of our listeners are aware of it, but if not, yeah, tell us a little bit about what it is and how you why you’ve incorporated this into your practice.

Amy Wong: 37:55

Yeah, so I learned about this in, I want to say, 2014, and I was so enthralled that I had to dive in so deep, and so I, I, I, I literally dove in, so I’ve become immersed. I’m certified in this. I had the pleasure of knowing and working with Judith before we sadly lost her to cancer in 2018.

Amy Wong: 38:17

So very sad she was doing tremendous work, and so there’s a, there’s a whole, there’s a whole big community of coaches worldwide that are deeply immersed in this work. Because it’s it really is. When you, when I, when I share with you what this is, you’re like yeah, because here’s, here’s how this goes. You know, you got IQ, which is our intelligent quotient, and then we’ve got EQ, which is our emotional quotient, but then what sits in the middle is our ability to connect, navigate and grow with one another through conversation. Because, guess what? We don’t live in a vacuum, we live in relationship to other people, and the medium by which anything is possible is communication or, let’s just aptly put it, conversation.

Amy Wong: 39:02

Now, so many folks leave it to chance, and the reason for that is because many people rely only on their intention. Because I believe everybody wakes up with a good intention. Everyone wakes up intending to do good in the world. Nobody wakes up saying I’m going to be evil today. I hope yeah, and they think they’re doing right by their worldview. And so they wake up with a good intention, and then they show up to the moment. They go for it, but then there’s the chance that things fall apart, and so where we tend to want to blame, it’s that it must be people’s intentions. No, it’s actually because you don’t understand the mechanics and the interaction dynamics of real conversation and how that maps to our neurochemistry, how that optimizes us for our greatest thinking and risk-taking and empathy or not. And so conversational intelligence is truly the art and the science of conversation, but it brings in anthropology, sociology, psychology, social neuroscience, leadership theory. There’s a lot that comes together to help understand them.

Todd Bertsch: 40:06

But when you see it clearly, you know it’s kind of like one of those things you can’t unsee it.

Amy Wong: 40:11

You’re like this is how it works, and so I know. For me, I innately just fascinated by communication because, starting in ninth grade, I recognized to the degree that I could communicate these concepts, to the degree that I could listen in a certain way, to the degree that I could ask questions that would ignite understanding in someone else, was the degree that we were successful. And so, innately, without knowing it, I became so fascinated by this thing called conversation, communication, and so I didn’t realize it, but I’d just been honing this, honing this, honing this, and it wasn’t until 2014 that I was able to make the invisible, visible map, science and frameworks, mindsets, approaches to what I innately know. And now I live to do this work with others.

Todd Bertsch: 41:02

That’s awesome.

Amy Wong: 41:03

Thank you for sharing that.

Todd Bertsch: 41:04

Amy, way, dig in right. I could just see you like, oh, I got to learn more about that. You’re like. You’re like your husband’s like oh God, let her go.

Amy Wong: 41:13

You’re going to get certified in that now, okay.

Todd Bertsch: 41:15

Yeah, let her go off to that attic. We got to talk about that attic for crying out loud. I want to see that attic that you talk about in the book.

Amy Wong: 41:25

My closet. Yes, yes, yes.

Todd Bertsch: 41:28

What is this? This is not a closet.

Amy Wong: 41:30

No, you know, this was my husband is so tremendous Like this man. There’s nothing this man can’t do. Well, he can’t swim, he doesn’t he’s, he does not like water.

Todd Bertsch: 41:39

That’s. The only thing we can’t do is swim.

Amy Wong: 41:41

But he converted. We had this sunroom, this was our home in San Francisco and when I moved in so this was like early 2000s when I moved in he, you know, you realize like oh, amy needs a space for herself. And so he converted this beautiful sunroom literally into this massive walk-in closet, but like with windows out looking. I mean, it was just, it was just tremendous. And it had a little deck that went outside and yeah, so that was my, that was my closet, oh yeah, I was pushing myself.

Todd Bertsch: 42:11

That’s why my big breakthrough there like having something like that, like I could just imagine you being so creative or meditating or reflecting or or whatever, choosing an outfit or whatever, but sound like a really cool space. You’re not there now.

Amy Wong: 42:26

No, yeah, we’ve. We’ve since moved on. We now, we now we’re raising our kids in Berkeley yeah, instead of San Francisco.

Todd Bertsch: 42:33

And so you forego that huge closet for a bedroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, we give, give, give, give our kids, that’s right.

Amy Wong: 42:46

Cool. Sorry, I had to. I had that as a note.

Todd Bertsch: 42:47

I was like oh, that is really cool, man, I got to talk about that, it was yeah. Very great, awesome. So we’re getting close here, but I got to talk about flow. Yeah, we got to talk about flow for a minute. We haven’t really talked about that on the show it. I feel like it’s like the shining I don’t want to say new object, but I feel like it’s the shiny object A lot of people are talking about flow now, maybe it’s just me and I’m starting to recognize it.

Todd Bertsch: 43:11

Maybe you’ll say yeah, you’re right, everyone’s talking about it.

Amy Wong: 43:14

What does that?

Todd Bertsch: 43:15

mean? What does that mean to you? And how does one get into the flow? And we’re talking? This is deeper than just saying I’m in the flow, man.

Amy Wong: 43:24

You know what I mean. You know what it reminds me of Gosh, what movie was that? Finding Nemo, do you remember Finding Nemo? And it gets with the turtles. The sea turtles are like we’re in the flow. Dude, you said that, oh my gosh. The high-chase sea turtles.

Todd Bertsch: 43:42

I’m going to pull that into my slide deck. That’s flow. You know what that’s flow? Baby, right there.

Amy Wong: 43:48

Yeah, I, um, yeah, so do I think about it that way, Maybe? So flow to me is it’s a dynamic experience. It’s not one that we can be in all the time, it’s one that we create for ourselves and it is due to intentional and somewhat on purpose focus. Focus and flow as an experience. Is that just delightful, delicious, energizing experience where you are immersed in something, where you just feel like all things are flowing on all cylinders? There’s a loss of time.

Amy Wong: 44:23

You know, if you’re interacting with someone like, you don’t have to necessarily be with yourself, but if you you are like, maybe like for me, math, I would always find flow. Like that I could spend hours working on my. I’m certain that’s why I ended up going pure math, not even applied right, cause I’m just immersed. Piano. Another thing, next thing, I know I’d been sitting at the piano for four hours like Whoa, how did that happen? So loss of time because you become so immersed and almost one with the activity. I also find you can be in flow with others. And how do we know we’re in flow? Because, again, there’s that loss of time and the ideas come together and you’re taking disparate ideas and bringing them together and coming up with incredible ways of looking at things, but the articulation and eloquence just flows. It just feels like flow. You know there’s no resistance.

Todd Bertsch: 45:08

No, resistance no resistance.

Amy Wong: 45:10

And so I think about flow in terms of the creative process and in terms of impact, because, as we are in flow, we’re bringing together concepts, ideas, we’re looking at patterns and we are essentially producing, creating something with no resistance. So it’s the result, the return, is something so much greater than if you had engaged in normal waking consciousness, right.

Amy Wong: 45:34

Where there’s just a lot of, there’s a lot of internal drama and strife, and so flow is. It’s not something we can stay in forever, but we can create it for ourselves. And you know there’s, of course there’s. You know, there, there’s, there’s a lot written about flow, and yeah hi.

Amy Wong: 45:50

Cheek sent me hi. Who is the kind of the, the godfather of this concept of flow? Who is that? Again, me hi. Cheeks sent me hi. I think that’s how you pronounce it. Yeah, that’s yeah, we’ll include it. I always have a hard time saying it, but he was the one that coined flow, okay.

Todd Bertsch: 46:07

Yeah, okay, interesting.

Amy Wong: 46:09

Then there’s of course, so much written about it right, yeah, I’m following Stephen Kotler. Yeah, yep, yep, that’s a good one. A lot about it.

Todd Bertsch: 46:15

Exactly, he’s got a great newsletter. Yeah, Do you feel the on?

Amy Wong: 46:33

on the journey to mastery. Okay, it doesn’t have to, you don’t have to require, because really it’s flow. It happens when you’re engaged in something that is right, right at your skill level, if just not a little bit above. So there’s a bit of a challenge, but not so much challenge that it creates stress and something I did. So I actually really like Steven Kotler’s work and I did his Zero to Dangerous program to know way more about the neuroscience.

Todd Bertsch: 46:54

Oh, you did. Okay, yeah, because I’m fascinated by it. I saw that. Yeah, I have it bookmarked Okay.

Amy Wong: 46:58

Yeah, and I really enjoyed it and I got a lot inically, what is it? One thing that I really appreciated, and I often talk about often, is that you know you can’t have flow without a necessary struggle phase that precedes that phase, and so you know it’s again. There’s the duality.

Todd Bertsch: 47:18

You need to struggle before you can hit flow, and so cortisol.

Amy Wong: 47:21

So I talk a lot about cortisol in the context of conversational intelligence right, because that’s a neurochemical we want to be mindful of as it gets in the way of our communication. But we don’t want to demonize cortisol, because cortisol is a necessary component of this experience of flow.

Amy Wong: 47:37

And so, yeah. So for me and the work that I do, the way I just make it simple for folks to think about is okay, what’s the opposite of flow? Resistance. And so if we want more flow, which means more joy, more impact, more creative, creative ability, more connection, we have to lessen our habits of resistance. And this ties to the big aha about should. So, without you know, without kind of what’s, when you, when you say you’re gonna ruin it for somebody, you’re gonna, I can’t think of the word. Like you know, if you’ve got a movie and you’re like, oh, I don’t want to ruin it for you, I don’t want to give you the yeah, anyway, I won’t explain it, yeah, yeah, but so should plays into this. But the whole idea is how do we lessen all of our habits of resistance? Cause all of us resist a lot more than we realize, and that that’s a big part of of of well understanding that. And then how do we create flow?

Amy Wong: 48:37

Right, which is just a wonderful place to be in when you can create it, yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 48:42

Yeah, I love how you said delicious. I was just like okay, interesting choice of words, but I like that. I want to get into a delicious flow Cool.

Amy Wong: 48:51

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 48:52

Amy, this has been wonderful. I want to be respectful of your time, although we could certainly talk for hours. I think you’re a beautiful person, incredibly, incredibly intelligent, excited for you and your. Tedx talk and probably another book and who knows what else you’re going to do, but once you see a topic, you’re going to dive in and tear it up and bring some great information to people.

Todd Bertsch: 49:15

So thank you for your devotion and finding your purpose and sharing that with others and how they can find their purpose. So incredibly grateful for you and connecting and looking forward to collaborating with you and having more conversations with you down the road.

Amy Wong: 49:32

I’d love that.

Todd Bertsch: 49:32

If there’s anything that you would love to, just leave us with our listeners any last nugget quotes. What would you say?

Amy Wong: 49:42

I’ll just go with what came to me immediately. Yeah, and sometimes I’ll get the question how do I even begin to be on purpose in life? Because it sounds interesting, this actually sounds right, it sounds good and, yeah, I do want to be on purpose in life. I want to be on purpose and I want to be in the driver’s seat of my own life. I’ll just say what came to me. I have found that, fundamentally, in order to do this and play this game and have fun at this, you have to make a fundamental decision. And here’s the decision Just at this point in life, you just have to decide you are totally done feeling crappy. Just you have to decide. You’re just intolerant of feeling crappy, you’re done feeling bad, you’re done feeling anything less than great. And when you can decide that you are done and get that leverage, that is truly that necessary step that kicks you into a frame of mind where being on purpose really starts to become inevitable.

Todd Bertsch: 50:43

Absolutely. Just get curious. You have it, you have it inside.

Amy Wong: 50:48

Yeah, yeah, it inside, yeah, yeah, thank you, this has been a pleasure, thank you.

Todd Bertsch: 50:51

Thank you, we’ll have your book show notes and the show notes and all the other links that we talked about. So thank you again, Amy. Have a great day. Thank you, you too, thank you for listening to this episode of the bolts podcast. You’re on an inspiring journey of growth, transformation and joy and I’m honored to be a part of it. If you found this episode valuable, please like, share it with your friends and consider leaving a review. It means the world to us. For show notes, resources, and to subscribe to the weekly Motivational Monday newsletter. Please visit toddbertsch.com and don’t forget to follow us on social media at the Bolt with Todd B for more inspiration. Remember, real change doesn’t happen overnight. Folks Start small, stay consistent and watch as your growth unfolds. See you next time, thank you.