Episode 11 – The Future of Leadership: Transformative Insights from Leadership Expert Scott J. Allen

Todd Bertsch: 0:08

Welcome back to the Bolt Podcast. I’m Todd B, your guide on this exciting journey of personal growth and leadership, where my guests and I will share personal stories from our transformational journeys of how small changes can lead to massive results. You’ll discover tips on overcoming obstacles, setting and achieving goals, building lasting habits, living a happy, healthy and positive life, and so much more. If you’re ready to cultivate a growth mindset and become the best version of yourself, then let’s ignite your growth today. Our guest today is Scott J. Allen, PhD, an award-winning educator and expert in leader development, executive communication and the future of work. With over 18 years of experience as a management professor, Scott is now a leadership consultant with Winding River Consulting and an instructor at SMU’s Cox School of Business. He is also a prolific author and podcast host of Phronesis Practical Wisdom for Leaders. Scott has impacted organizations across industries, including NASA, Toyota and Cleveland Clinic, bringing his expertise to leadership development and organizational transformation through keynote speaking, consulting workshops and leading retreats. Listeners, get ready to be educated. This is going to be so good, Scott.

Scott J. Allen: 1:34

Welcome to the BOLT podcast, my friend. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I’m excited to be here, looking forward to the conversation.

Todd Bertsch: 1:39

Yes, me too. I know we have a lot of things to talk about. We have so much in common right with leadership, leadership development. So let’s just dig into this. Yeah, let’s do it. So if you were to define leadership in one word, what would that be One word. That’s it. I know Influence. Well, that didn’t take you long.

Scott J. Allen: 1:59

No, no Influence. Why? The longer definition I often use is the process of influencing others toward a common vision. The process of influencing others toward a common vision. So can I use myself to mobilize, energize, enthuse a group of people, and ultimately that’s an influence process. So that’s a whole fun topic. There’s this whole world of these things called influence tactics. So how do we influence With your marketing background and with your advertising background? And I mean that’s influence as well, but it’s generally speaking when I boil it down to one word influence. So can I influence my children to move in a certain direction, or influence a colleague, or influence a client or my supervisor? It all comes down to influence.

Scott J. Allen: 2:46

For me, now, one way we could also like take the conversation is that there’s a difference between influence and authority. Sometimes you have a person in a position of authority they’re the boss, so to speak but they may not have a lot of influence among the team and you’ve worked for this individual right. And then there’s individuals who never really have to access their authority. You just wanted to work above and beyond for them. You wanted to go to the extra mile. So that’s that dynamic that just absolutely fascinates me, keeps me up at night. I’m constantly seeking kind of what is behind this whole process of influencing others. What is it about an individual when you’re in their presence and you just feel motivated? You feel excited. Maybe it was that teacher you had, that coach you had, maybe it was mom or dad, hopefully. But there’s so much going on in that dynamic. I just have jet fuel for the topic. I really do. But for me one word influence, interesting. Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 3:47

And that has to come from a place of authenticity, right, because I feel like there’s a lot of influencers online social media that aren’t really authentic and you could build a following, right, but are you really leading an effort or a conversation that’s meaningful, that is sustainable?

Scott J. Allen: 4:11

Yeah. So authenticity, yes, I mean the glue in any human relationship is trust, and as soon as I no longer trust you, or no longer, or at least some red flags go off as to whether or not I should then maybe some of that influence begins to wane a little bit. I might keep you at arm’s length. I may not authentically kind of be as enthusiastic or energized, because we’ve all been hurt, we’ve all been cast aside, we’ve all been wronged at some point, so we have an antenna for that. So that authenticity is incredibly important for sure. Now and this is another fun part of the conversation plenty of people in world history who are not authentically good people have risen to the highest levels and have had a great deal of power, right, and so it’s really, really interesting because sometimes toxic individuals, bad individuals, bad actors they move through organizations quickly as well, and that’s interesting. How, why, what’s going on in that context that really kind of allows that to occur? Fascinating, right.

Todd Bertsch: 5:23

Right, so are there some similar characteristics that you see with good and bad quote unquote leaders?

Scott J. Allen: 5:31

Yeah, Well, okay. So you could look at leadership like this. You could say the word influence sometimes can have, or influencer can kind of have, a negative connotation. It can, for sure. Same thing with the word power that can have a negative connotation at times. For me, the words influence, the word power. They’re kind of benign concepts. Humans make it so. So great good has been done with influence in world history Great good, Horrible atrocities as well. And same thing with power. People who’ve had power have done incredible good with that power. But who’ve had power have done incredible good with that power. But at times people have used power for just destruction, just evil, right. So for me, humans make it. So.

Scott J. Allen: 6:15

I think, when I’m talking about leadership, one of the most foundational conversations that we can have is are you solid in who you are and what you stand for? Is your moral compass clear? Are you an individual who is in that foundation solidly, so that when not if, when your ethics are challenged, when you find yourself in a situation where you’re being asked to do something that goes against that, do you have that solid foundation? And I think at times some people don’t. Sometimes the system corrupts them, Sometimes they gain power, and then you know the old adage that absolute power corrupts. So it’s interesting, I think, another thing on this conversation for any leader are you solid in who you are and what you stand for? But then also, who are your thinking partners, who are your individuals that will keep you grounded, that you can turn to, that have been with you for and know you for you?

Scott J. Allen: 7:16

And all the time when I’m engaging with C-level executives, when you’re engaging with founders, when you’re, it can feel very, very lonely. When you’re engaging with founders, it can feel very, very lonely. And also, especially if you are not an individual who’s good at creating a psychologically safe space for others, you shut yourself off from feedback. People are not being authentic with you. People are not telling you that that was a little bit too harsh in that meeting and you’re actually de-energizing the team.

Scott J. Allen: 7:43

People aren’t giving you that feedback as readily. So who is? So that you can stay grounded, you can stay real? And if you are veering, if you are when triggered, not behaving how you would hope to in your best self, who’s letting you know that right? And if we don’t have that in place, we’re literally starting to kind of close the window and we’re working from less and less true self-awareness, and Dan Goldman writes about that. He calls that CEO disease, where an individual, as it, kind of moves further and further up the organization, they can close themselves off more and more from authentic feedback, which is super problematic, right.

Todd Bertsch: 8:29

Right, absolutely no. I love this and I actually wanted to talk about this. It was a question I had about. I’m sure you’re familiar with Marshall Goldsmith. He’s a big fan of 360 degree feedback.

Scott J. Allen: 8:41

Yes.

Todd Bertsch: 8:41

Feedback in general, but really 360 degree. He’s been doing this forever right Yep. Yep, and I think it’s really, really important for leaders, regardless of middle management, c-level, wherever they’re at, to get that feedback.

Scott J. Allen: 8:57

Yes.

Todd Bertsch: 8:57

And I totally agree. When you get to a certain level like, for instance, myself being an owner of a small business, but still an owner for many years I felt like I was on an Island. Yes, I had really nobody, and my wife doesn’t want to hear this stuff I come home.

Scott J. Allen: 9:13

You know it’s like all right, it’s been five years of this you know I’m done.

Todd Bertsch: 9:17

Yeah, I’m happy to hear it out, but she doesn’t understand. You really need somebody that can understand, and I think that feedback ties into having an accountability partner.

Scott J. Allen: 9:28

Sure.

Todd Bertsch: 9:28

We all need that right, yes.

Todd Bertsch: 9:29

The checks and balances, yep. So how do you go about when you consult or when you’re teaching or in a seminar? How do you go about educating people on how important that is and being vulnerable and being open to getting the right? It’s one thing to. It gets smaller and smaller, but you still need to be open to it, yes, right. And then when you get to that high level, it’s tough.

Todd Bertsch: 9:55

And I’ll tell you one thing real quick that I did sure, um, because I wanted, I wanted to get that feedback. Yeah, and, being the owner, I don’t report to anybody, right, right? So who am I going to ask? So I asked my kind of direct. You know people that report to me and I said I want you to here’s, you know three questions. You know what am I doing? Well, what could I work on? And any other feedback? Send it to my high performance coach. She’s going to scramble it, mix it up. Which she’s going to scramble it, mix it up, make it totally anonymous. Sent back to me so that they felt very free and open to say what they wanted to say, and that was a good process, and I’m sure there’s other ways of doing it. But I wanted to get that feedback. But I didn’t want them to feel like, oh well, he’s going to know what I said.

Todd Bertsch: 10:41

I had no idea. So, yeah, feedback is incredibly important, right.

Scott J. Allen: 10:48

Yeah, and in so many areas of our lives where we’re trying to improve something, yeah, you have a coach. That the challenge in in leader and management, leadership and management oftentimes is that it’s. It’s not a coach who’s watching you perform in real time. It’s oftentimes me speaking with a therapist, me speaking with the coach, after the fact getting some 360 feedback. That’s like almost saying, well, I have a bunch of people who’ve gone to practice with me. Let’s say I was a diver growing up so I have a bunch of people who’ve been at practice with me, but I haven’t actually had the coach watching me. So it’s interesting, it’s really kind of fascinating. I mean coach watching me. So it’s interesting, it’s really kind of fascinating. I mean, so how do we set ourselves up to be successful?

Scott J. Allen: 11:32

I had a woman on my podcast her name is Amy Elizabeth Fox and she said something that was just beautiful, but she said look, we’re really working to ensure that these leaders are performance ready. And I actually just had three women from the Naval War College on as well, and that was a fascinating conversation, because I said so what’s new, what’s hot, what are you all thinking about at the Naval War College? And their answer just completely surprised me because they said look, we know that, technically, we are going to train these individuals to do well, we know that they are going to be prepared when it comes to their knowledge about how to do warfare, and we know that they’re going to be prepared when it comes to their knowledge about how to do warfare, and we know that they’re going to be physically fit. But there’s this whole other element of an individual, of a person, of a human. So are they spiritually ready? What is their spiritual readiness? And they said we aren’t going to put any kind of, we don’t care what spirituality it is, but are you locked into that foundation of who you are and what you stand for? Is their family whole and is that part of their life intact? So it was really, really interesting because they’re starting to focus on that whole individual, that whole person, and getting into conversations like mindfulness, reflection, critical reflection and, again, ensuring that that person’s whole.

Scott J. Allen: 12:46

So for me, who’s that team? Who’s that team for you? It could be your team that feels comfortable giving feedback. It could be a coach. It could be therapy. I’ve had a therapist for 17 years. He’s incredible.

Scott J. Allen: 12:59

I get on the phone, I go on a walk every two weeks and I can say, hey, I’m not feeling as much energy about teaching anymore. What do you think? What’s going on with that, or this is really triggering me with my son. I’m not good enough to navigate that yet. What do you think? Help me think through this. So it’s a thinking partner. Now, my wife and I also walk every morning at 5.30 am. We were out this morning with a big dip Bruno Ryan Cassiopeia was out right 5 am club, and she’s a thinking partner for me. That’s awesome.

Scott J. Allen: 13:32

So it might be your spirituality, it might be yoga, it might be a really, really good friend. But are you arming yourself so that you’re performance ready? Because, as you know better than anyone else, having built a business, that’s not easy work, that’s incredibly difficult work, it’s stressful work, but it’s not sustainable long term unless we’re investing in that. And again, that’s what the Naval War College is thinking about. How do we truly ensure that the whole person is healthy, as healthy as can be, is as mature as can be? Because, again, when you’re leading, you have to bring a level of maturity to the table, and so those are a couple foundational things for me. Right, are you locked into yourself from a moral, ethical standpoint, what are your values and that those will shift. But are you visiting that and are you clear on that? But then next, who are your coaches? Who are your thinking partners? Who are those people who are helping you be the best version of yourself and are you investing in that so that you are performance ready?

Todd Bertsch: 14:39

Yeah, you said it right there Investing in yourself is the best investment you could ever make.

Scott J. Allen: 14:44

Well, if others are in your care one of my favorite leadership quotes, okay? So Bob Hogan said this. So we were talking about assessments, hogan assessments. So Bob Hogan said look, who you are is how you lead. So who are you? Well, that’s a really, really important question, right? Because if you’re a little bit of an alcoholic, who’s somewhat of a pessimist, and that’s what you’re bringing to the table and that’s who you are as a leader or a parent because you could also say who you are as how you parent, who you are as how you coach, who you are as how you teach Well, then that’s what the team gets.

Scott J. Allen: 15:25

A pessimistic, alcoholic boss, right, and no one deserves that or wants that. So, at least for me, that quote is so incredibly important because that’s someone’s personality, that’s their maturity level, that’s their values that is so many, that’s their lived history, their actual knowledge about leading others, their skill when it comes to leading others. That’s everything. And so who you are matters greatly. So for me, that team, are they helping you be the best possible version of yourself? Because if others are in your care and this is our kids, this is our employees, this is our team members they deserve that. They deserve the best version of you. So by no means is Scott perfect, by no means have I figured it out.

Scott J. Allen: 16:10

But, I’m in process and I’m actively working on it and trying desperately to be the best father, to be the best colleague, to be the best thinking partner for others, right.

Todd Bertsch: 16:21

Yeah, I love that. And and one thing that’s key, there is you committed to and then we’re going to talk about it here.

Todd Bertsch: 16:29

I’m ready for this. You committed to continual growth? Yes, right, and I think that’s the real key, and I’ve seen a lot of good leaders. The differentiator between a good leader and a great leader is somebody who is open and willing to commit to change. Yep, not every leader is. They feel like they’ve reached the mountains, right, they’re already there, they’re at the summit, there’s nowhere else to go. You can’t tell me anything that I’m not going to learn. I’m set my ways, yep, and that’s really unfortunate.

Todd Bertsch: 17:18

I’ve seen organizations crumble because the leader right, the person at the top that’s setting the tone for the at the end of the show, which is the Monk who Sold His Ferrari by Robin Sharma, which I absolutely love, that dude to death.

Scott J. Allen: 17:30

Awesome he is freaking amazing.

Todd Bertsch: 17:34

I read that in there and I’m like what is this? So I went to Google and looked it up and it’s funny, through the lull of attraction now I’m seeing it all over, primarily from you. Yeah, so that word is Kaizen. Oh, yeah, yeah, so we got to go there. I absolutely love this concept. I’ve actually been given the 150 slide deck from Toyota about it and I haven’t dug into it yet, but it’s crazy and I started doing research and I love Japanese philosophy. There’s just a lot there right.

Todd Bertsch: 18:08

Especially when you talk about growth, leadership and mindfulness.

Scott J. Allen: 18:12

Talk about people who’ve been thinking about this for a while. Right, exactly Right.

Todd Bertsch: 18:16

So let’s talk about this, educate our listeners on this, because I think it’s a wonderful concept. That’s how I live, that’s how I’m built and that’s how I want to continue to live my life.

Scott J. Allen: 18:27

Yeah Well, I think you know it’s in very, very. This isn’t the 150 slide deck version. This is the four word version. We don’t have time for that, no but it’s like a continuous improvement as a way of being right, continuous improvement as a way of being, and I think at times it can be easy to think of that in kind of like an operations context.

Todd Bertsch: 18:48

Right.

Scott J. Allen: 18:52

Where we’re trying to get another car off the line in a little bit less time, but that applies just as directly to a human being. Absolutely. What is my system Like? A? Okay, so who are my thinking partners?

Todd Bertsch: 19:01

Who are?

Scott J. Allen: 19:02

those individuals and also what is my system for continuous development and growth? Okay, so I’ll give you a couple of mine that I’ve stumbled upon. So one is that group of thinking partners. Number two, my podcast. I mean, every week I have my butt kicked by speaking with someone from somewhere in the world who knows a heck of a lot more about something than I do, or has had some incredible experiences that I’ve never had and that has systematized my learning. Every week I’m having conversations with folks and it has just been this beautiful process and really confronted me with how little I know.

Scott J. Allen: 19:43

Right, you know, you can say oh he has a PhD or he’s studied this for 20 years. Well, I know a drop in an ocean. I know a drop. Now I’m getting some more wisdom, I’m getting some more education, but that has been systematized right that whole learning and that whole growth. Another version of this is my wife. So we have a relationship where, you know, she feels very comfortable saying that didn’t go well.

Scott J. Allen: 20:12

Scott, you know, be thinking about this if you put this into motion. It might be an interaction that I had with the kids. It might be, you know, that didn’t go well. You probably could have intervened a little differently or you didn’t time that well. And again, that’s that 5 am walk, 5.30 am walk that we are on, where we’re oftentimes downloading debriefing, reflecting, kind of planning for how we might be talking about our daughter. How do we nudge her towards prioritizing her grades a little bit more? How do we influence her, versus having to say you’ve gotten this taken away and no more iPad and this is gone and you can’t do this. No, we’re gently nudging, influencing and coaching, right, I mean, that’s what we’re trying to do and you guys are doing that together.

Todd Bertsch: 20:58

Oh, 100%. And she, you give her feedback as well.

Scott J. Allen: 21:00

So you guys have this open yes, and that is a beautiful thing.

Todd Bertsch: 21:04

It is I just want to say like, not a lot of people are in that position. It’s awesome, that’s rare.

Scott J. Allen: 21:09

I feel like. So for me it’s just the water I’ve been swimming in, because that’s the relationship that we’ve worked on. I mean, it’s not easy and, as you know, as a parent, I mean what’s also fascinating about that is I’m who are those individuals that are going to give that feedback to you? And that has also then systematized my learning right. That has kind of helped me with that process. So, yeah, there’s a great quote I can’t think of who said it. Right now, leaders are learners.

Scott J. Allen: 21:43

So Kaizen, continuous improvement Are we continually learning about ourselves, confronting those areas that maybe aren’t where we want them to be yet and slowly chipping away?

Scott J. Allen: 21:53

I was telling you before we started recording this awesome and I know you love James Clear, but this awesome also book by a gentleman named BJ Fogg called Tiny Habits, and he is a behavioral scientist. He’s fascinated by humans and behavior and how we change behavior and behavior and how we change behavior. So endless energy for the concept of Kaizen, because none of us have arrived and that CEO you were mentioning a little bit ago, who maybe is afraid to be vulnerable, is afraid to say I don’t know the answer here, is afraid to show a side of them where they’re going to have to follow and take the lead of some of the younger folks who probably do have some potential solutions. You’re right, they’re cooked. It’s just a matter of time at this point for that individual Because they’ve closed themselves off from getting that feedback, having that input, creating a psychologically safe space for others to have that input, and they’re literally flying blind. People are going to sit in the meeting and nod their head and not say anything.

Scott J. Allen: 23:05

And then go have the meeting after the meeting at the water cooler and say well, this is going to be a train wreck and it’s tragic.

Scott J. Allen: 23:12

It’s tragic in organizational life. And sometimes, when I say psychological safety, I think this doesn’t mean that the leader has to agree with all the feedback, agree with all the input. Sometimes I’m going to have to make a decision, todd, that you might disagree with. I totally get that, but I do want to hear it. I do want to hear your, I do want to hear your perspective. I need your perspective. Get it out so that we can kind of chart, as you know, when you’re doing business strategy. You know how do I increase market share in the next year by 5%? Well, you can’t call anyone to give you the answer.

Scott J. Allen: 23:49

No one has that answer I wish but your best hope is that you have a team of people who feels like they can bring their best to the table. You all can have that knockdown drag out and then maybe kind of collaborate on some things. That are our best guesses and we try Right. Otherwise you’re flying blind.

Todd Bertsch: 24:08

Yeah, and most of the time. In particular employees. They just want to have their voice heard.

Scott J. Allen: 24:16

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 24:17

We see it in our NPS surveys, the employee surveys we do on an annual basis or biannual basis. People, just, they just want to be heard. Do you care? Do you care? I just, I have thoughts, I want to contribute, I want to feel like I’m a part of something, and people love to be challenged.

Scott J. Allen: 24:35

Yes.

Todd Bertsch: 24:36

The brain, we love being challenged and really pushed to the edge.

Scott J. Allen: 24:40

Yep. And then, as a leader, are you modeling, when someone does have a great idea or when it wasn’t. Your mind, child, right, your highlight this was Todd’s idea. It was an incredible idea. It’s totally transformed where we’ve gone as an organization and then you’re giving some of that credit and that creates a we and again, ultimately, I’m the authority figure and I may make a decision you disagree with, right, but I always want to hear your perspective. I always want to hear your feedback, because you know this is a fascinating topic, todd, but we all suffer from about 180 cognitive biases that limit our ability to truly make sense of the world. So we all, all of us have to walk into situations with a certain level of humility and curiosity when we’re not getting the results we want because we are all severely limited. Perhaps the most important cognitive bias is that we don’t think we are limited. We do think we’re making sense of the world as is, and you know we’re not.

Todd Bertsch: 25:46

Yeah, and I love that. And that goes back to a book over there Maybe you’ve heard me mention it by Shannon Lee, bruce Lee’s daughter. Bruce Lee approached everything with an empty cup, always just being open. The best type of cup is a cup that’s empty. So you’re going into every conversation with just an open mind. You’re not making any assumptions and I love that. I think that’s what you’re talking about here is just being open.

Scott J. Allen: 26:15

Yes, yes.

Todd Bertsch: 26:16

To feedback, to ideas, and it doesn’t have to be yours, yes. So just because you’re the leader, with the person who has the solutions.

Scott J. Allen: 26:38

And that’s a very lonely place to be Because, again, a lot of the complexity, that Rich Kramer at Goodyear right now is navigating, or Chris Gorman at KeyBank is navigating, or Tricia Griffith at Progressive no one person has the answer and that’s silly to think that that’s the case. Their best hope is that they have a team of people who have their own level of expertise and the psychological safety to say you know, chris, I disagree, no, rich. I think we should probably move in this direction, or this is a consideration we should probably elevate from my vantage point, and then we can co-create a path forward which ultimately, is our best guess, right?

Todd Bertsch: 27:16

Right, yeah, and I think it goes back to that team that you have, not only for the support and the checks and balances, but also surrounding yourself with amazing people. Yes, people that are smarter than you and not being afraid to do that.

Scott J. Allen: 27:31

Well, and then, yeah, as a leader, then when do I need to switch gears and move into a follower role? Because you have a heck of a lot more expertise than I do. About your area of expertise, right, I’m very limited and we’ve had those conversations about my limitations. When it comes to your world right, I’m learning SEO. To your world right, I’m learning SEO. I’m learning a little bit more about how to market myself or think about how to do business development, but I have a heck of a lot to learn. A heck of a lot to learn.

Todd Bertsch: 28:02

Right. Well, that’s why we’re taking on the philosophy of Kaizen. Kai meaning change, zen meaning good, change is good.

Scott J. Allen: 28:14

It is.

Todd Bertsch: 28:15

But it all comes down to you have to commit to it.

Todd Bertsch: 28:18

You have to be open to it. That’s the whole thing and that’s what the bold is really about. That’s what I’ve been about and, like you, scott, like I, am making mistakes daily, and that’s okay, because I’m just iterating, I’m embracing the journey. It’s an infinite game. I mean, yes, we will die eventually, but the game of life is infinite. And if you think about it that way and embrace the journey, then you’re just constantly on this continual improvement of being the best person you can be.

Todd Bertsch: 28:49

And it’s not only for you, but it’s for everybody you serve.

Scott J. Allen: 28:53

Yep.

Todd Bertsch: 28:53

Right and that’s. And I wanted to ask you about that, because when we talk about leadership, when I asked you what your word is, you know mine, I think is serve. So I wanted to ask what you feel the role of being a servant leader is and how you infuse that into your teachings, into your consulting and workshops.

Scott J. Allen: 29:18

Yeah, so the whole concept. Robert Greenleaf came up with the concept of servant leadership, which was based kind of on some of the writings of Herman Hesse, kind of on some of the writings of Herman Hesse. And servant leadership de-elevates, de-positions, in some ways, the leader as the focal point. The leader is an individual who’s playing a role and that role is to help the organization move forward to the best of their ability with the power and levers that they can pull. But it is not necessarily all about that individual or all about that person as the key. So it’s this shift in mindset, in my mind at least, how I make sense of servant leadership, in the sense that it’s about how are you bettering the community, how are you bettering your team? How are you playing that role? And, in some ways, one way I like to think about leadership also is that are you unleashing the energy in the system? Are you kind of tapping in and unleashing all of that energy versus you being the source of it? Right, you always being the person who has to inspire? You have to be the person who motivates. No, there’s a lot of energy in the system of people who can do motivating and inspiring things. Are you simply a conduit to let that emerge, and it’s a very, very different perspective, but it goes back to, in some ways, if you had the good idea. One way to help that energy emerge is to say Todd came up with this, it was brilliant, it was incredible, thank you, right, and anything I can do to help you achieve further gains. Let me know what that is. And then that’s kind of me as servant versus necessarily the person being served all the time Right. Servant versus necessarily the person being served all the time Right.

Scott J. Allen: 31:14

For me, what’s interesting on this topic is, I think, when is it inappropriate to be a servant leader? Because I think at times we can. Should Harry Truman have been a servant leader? Was he a servant leader? And so I think there’s there’s.

Scott J. Allen: 31:35

At times it can be become very simplistic in our thinking about leadership that it’s always appropriate. Well, there may be times when servant leadership might get you killed or might damage the organization if you don’t prioritize some other things. So, for it’s about intentionally choosing. Generally defaulting to this is the role, and I want to make that super clear. Right, but there are times potentially when that approach if you’re surrounded by people with the wrong, if you have the wrong team and they’re really not doing anything. Is it appropriate for you to maintain servant leadership all the time? I don’t know. That’s kind of an interesting conversation and we could get into a fun debate about that, but that’s the type of stuff I’d love to think about. So, generally speaking, yes, awesome, good, a great mindset to have, and I think it can be overly simplistic if we think that’s always the approach we need to take. It might actually do damage at times Again, especially if we have the wrong team or if we’re working for a bad actor or our mission isn’t aligned with what we probably should be doing.

Todd Bertsch: 32:47

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, no, that’s good Empathy. Yeah, no, that’s good Empathy. Okay, what role does empathy play in leadership? These days, I feel like COVID really well, obviously right, it changed everything on end.

Scott J. Allen: 33:06

Yeah, so this is another one that would be a little bit like servant leadership. Okay, time and place one that would be a little bit like servant leadership, okay. So this, yeah, that’s a question I love Like when is it appropriate to display empathy and have that as a way of being, when might it actually ruin your organization, or when might it, in extreme cases, get you killed, or when is it not appropriate? And so I have some friends. I just finished a great book by Jocko Willink called the Dichotomy of Leadership.

Todd Bertsch: 33:36

Jocko yeah.

Scott J. Allen: 33:37

So again, it could be very easy for me as a PhD in academia to discredit a John Maxwell or a Jocko Willink or a Simon Sinek, and those are important sources of knowledge, especially given the influence that Jocko has had in the larger landscape. So I need to be aware of that work, I need to be paying close attention to it. But one reason I really respect Jocko is that his first book, extreme Ownership when I first heard that I was like, oh, this is not going to go well when it interfaces with industry. When I first heard that I was like, oh, this is not going to go well when it interfaces with industry Because you’re going to have people. It can give the message that you have people out and they’re just. I envisioned it. They’re on the manufacturing floor barking orders about how everyone needs to have extreme ownership. Right, and it can be taken incorrectly.

Scott J. Allen: 34:28

I think at times, and actually in the beginning of dichotomy, he says look, we saw how this interface with the world and sometimes extreme ownership isn’t appropriate. Sometimes it can be taken to an extreme. So dichotomy is all about kind of balancing these different things like confidence and humility. You know, of course, you, you can be overly humble, you can also be overly confident. When is it appropriate to model both? And how do you kind of balance that, to use their words, right?

Scott J. Allen: 35:00

So empathy is another one where it’s incredibly important, incredibly important. There are contexts, though, where it could become a weakness, and so I think for me, it’s about intentionally choosing when is it appropriate to really? But if I overuse empathy on an employee that’s just abusing me and abusing my, my, my kindness or my accommodations consistently, right? Well, now my organization is going to suffer, especially if I have four of them. So how do I balance empathy with well, standards and accountability? And this is what I actually need from you. And it’s the same thing with our children, right? I mean, we’re constantly kind of balancing, to use their words. I like almost a metaphor of a dial, like I might dial empathy up to a seven sometimes, but I might need to dial empathy down to a four with an individual sometimes, like I still care about you, I want you to be successful, but I also need this in this moment from you, because this is your job, right?

Scott J. Allen: 36:06

That’s what you’ve committed to, and this is what I need. And so I might need to dial it down a little bit, and especially over, let’s say, this is over a period of. And so I might need to dial it down a little bit, and especially over, let’s say, this is over a period of months. I might need to dial down the empathy a little bit more. But you know people who they’ve held on to, someone who was not doing their job, who was not following through, sometimes for years, and their co-workers suffer, their co-workers have to develop workarounds and ultimately it does damage to the organization at times.

Todd Bertsch: 36:38

I absolutely love this, and it’s not something that’s been top of mind for me, so I love that you brought this up, I think it’s really, really important. Great book. Check it out. Yeah, I would definitely yeah, and I love. So. You have these foundational elements of being a servant leader empathy.

Scott J. Allen: 36:55

Yeah, and we could go to a whole bunch of other, really.

Todd Bertsch: 36:57

But that dial. I love the metaphor of seeing a dial. So my question back to you would be well, how do I know? So, if you’re telling me that I need to have this balance and I’m new to leadership.

Scott J. Allen: 37:09

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 37:09

So is this a class? Is this something that you can teach me?

Scott J. Allen: 37:13

Yes.

Todd Bertsch: 37:13

Or is it purely? I think a lot of it might just be experience, which that is time right To be in a situation and just know you know what? Yeah, johnny’s been taking advantage of me. I really need to dial that empathy back a little bit.

Scott J. Allen: 37:31

Yes.

Todd Bertsch: 37:33

But how do you know?

Scott J. Allen: 37:35

Is it?

Todd Bertsch: 37:35

a gut thing.

Scott J. Allen: 37:37

This is where we go back to the thinking partners.

Todd Bertsch: 37:39

Yeah.

Scott J. Allen: 37:40

This is where I have three or four people. Maybe I have a mentor in the community that has had a business for years. So I have all kinds of mentors. I have the therapist that I mentioned, but I also have a mentor that I speak with every couple weeks. I have the therapist that I mentioned, but I also have a mentor that I speak with every couple weeks. I have my wife. I have other people that I turn to for specific topics, whether it’s money, whether it’s health, whether it’s that. They’re just incredible leader and I want to get their perspective.

Scott J. Allen: 38:05

So you have that team where you can say, hey, I got a case study for you. I’ve been dealing with this. What do you think? What do I potentially need to own in this? Because, oh, I might be overly empathetic and I’ve let this drag on for four weeks, right, or four months or four years. So that comes back to those thinking partners for me. And do I have that team of individuals that can help me get this out of my head and help me navigate? Is it time to pull? You know, kind of make the decision on Jim? It probably is. Do you think I’m off base here? No, you know, and if you, as soon as you get saturation, to two or three people saying, yeah, you probably need to make a decision here. Well then you know you’ve got some data and that’s helpful.

Scott J. Allen: 38:51

I think a lot of leaders let it bumble around in their head they don’t have those thinking partners and they’re just trying their best. And you know that’s a different place to be. Now, if you’ve been reading a ton and if you’ve been reading Jocko, if you’ve been reading some of the great scholars, if you’ve been reading Leadership Challenge by Kouzes and Posner, you also have some inputs, right. So that’s where my mind goes back to those thinking partners and they’re that team that’s helping you be performance ready. And then to your point yeah, then I’ve got the wisdom.

Scott J. Allen: 39:26

After some of those people have helped, coached me through some of those initial times, I’m dealing with having my empathy be abused. Okay now, I know this is a thing, okay here, but for me, when do you activate those thinking partners when you’re not getting the data back that you want? I’m dealing with this. This keeps happening. This person’s negative. How do I navigate that? What are my options? What experiments can I run to try and help this person be more optimistic or dial down the negativity, because I’ve tried a couple things but they haven’t worked yet, so what else can I try? Those thinking partners are the people that you turn to.

Todd Bertsch: 40:06

Well, I see a theme here, thinking partners Having that team. That’s awesome. I love that yeah.

Scott J. Allen: 40:15

And I think you have to go in with those individuals in place, right? I mean, it’s not something that’s just kind of happening six years in, when everything’s falling apart. You’ve got those individuals that are going to keep you grounded, those individuals who are going to know you and what you value, and then those individuals that can provide that wisdom.

Todd Bertsch: 40:37

Yeah, I think the toughest part, probably for a younger leader, is figuring out who those people are going to be.

Scott J. Allen: 40:45

Sure.

Todd Bertsch: 40:45

You know that’s that’s. You know they’re still formulating their network and and who? You know who’s going to be that mentor or that coach? But I think just the notion that we all need help, it’s okay. We don’t have to be macho man Randy Savage here. No, you know no.

Scott J. Allen: 41:05

And just go out there and get it.

Todd Bertsch: 41:06

Yeah, get off your island.

Scott J. Allen: 41:08

And I think for me, the starting point of having a psychologist I don’t know why I had a professor. That is like literally one of the only things I remember from undergrad and it was my freshman year at the University of Minnesota and I had a psychology class and this teacher was a therapist and she said look, people come to me when their world’s falling apart. That’s when I’m meeting them, me when their world’s falling apart. That’s when I’m meeting them when their world’s falling apart. And it’s very hard to be helpful at that point. And for some reason, like I don’t know what it is, but that stuck with me.

Scott J. Allen: 41:45

And even in undergrad I was seeing a therapist. And then I got into my career and I was seeing a therapist, and again, it’s not because my world was falling apart, sometimes it was. It was because I took that piece of advice and this is a person who can help me. Now you have to find the right fit and I know that you have a coach that you really resonate with and that you really really enjoy working with and that you really really enjoy working with.

Scott J. Allen: 42:16

And for me, it’s just been absolutely game-changing because there’s that consistent cadence and not every meeting is this magical, wonderful experience or this incredible insights, but it’s that consistency. Over 17 years this gentleman literally has watched me raise my kids and having that individual who can be a thinking partner on some really difficult decisions that I’ve made, really difficult decisions, that having that guidance, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I mean it’s been invaluable.

Todd Bertsch: 42:53

I’m so impressed I’ve learned so much about you today, scott the fact that you’ve you’ve been so mindful of yourself, your situation, your life and challenges to recognize that as an undergrad at 20.

Scott J. Allen: 43:11

Yeah, and in that case crazy to me honestly like how many people do that well in that, in that instance, I’d had, you know, a three-year divorce of my parents, I’d had two really significant relationships and where I was the person being broken up with. So in in those instances, yeah, things weren’t where I wanted them to be.

Todd Bertsch: 43:35

So there were a few significant events that.

Scott J. Allen: 43:39

Yeah, and then you had this person that said it and it just clicked.

Todd Bertsch: 43:44

You’re like okay, yeah.

Scott J. Allen: 43:46

I need someone else to help me think through, because I knew keeping it in my head wasn’t helpful. It wasn’t going to get me where I wanted to be and so, yes, it’s. And so again, when I look at leadership, my undergrad degree was marriage and family therapy. It was family social science is what it was called but it was all about a family and that family system. So that has direct relationships. So much of that thinking to a small team and the relationships in that team and the system of that team. So, yeah, I mean I can go down this road also.

Todd Bertsch: 44:24

Yeah, yeah, no, and maybe we.

Scott J. Allen: 44:26

I think we’re definitely doing show two and three right.

Todd Bertsch: 44:29

And it’s important stuff.

Scott J. Allen: 44:30

It’s 100%.

Todd Bertsch: 44:32

These are great topics.

Scott J. Allen: 44:33

Because it’s not easy. I mean leading others, as you again, as you know better than anyone, it’s incredibly difficult.

Todd Bertsch: 44:40

Oh, it is the most challenging, obviously, being a father is that leadership role.

Scott J. Allen: 44:45

Well, okay, so I’m going to tell you one quick story. And so, when my wife was about to have our son this is almost 17 years ago now she said look, I just hope you really enjoy this experience and stay present with this experience. And so, for some reason, I kind of took that to heart and Will was born, and on day one I opened up my laptop and I wrote a sentence. And on day two I opened my laptop and I wrote a sentence. And on day two I opened my laptop and I wrote a sentence. And so, literally, since the girls I have twin girls and my son every day the first task I do is I write their one sentence and it might be about each one of them, oh my gosh, and it might be you walked for the first time yesterday we were in alaska.

Scott J. Allen: 45:34

Listen to this song. It’s an incredible, incredible song. Here’s a poem I love. Check in with it. Call your mom today. She’s the best mom in the world.

Scott J. Allen: 45:41

You know any of that type of stuff, but for my son, in recent times the statement has been you’re challenging me to get better because I’m not good enough yet in certain instances to navigate it the way I would like to navigate it right, some of the situations. And it’s a mirror, just like leadership can be a mirror. If we choose. It’s very easy for as a parent or as a leader to say, oh, they don’t get it, they’re not good, this isn’t Back to that empathy example. This isn’t back to that empathy example.

Scott J. Allen: 46:19

Well, sometimes, if I’m avoidant of conflict and I haven’t had the difficult conversations with this person I’m actually part of the dysfunction. So those are the things that maybe you’re talking about with your thinking partner. You know they can help you hold up the mirror and say, hey, well, how are you contributing to this dysfunction, right? What? Their lack of performance, what, what? And so I think, whether it’s parenting, whether it’s leadership, there’s a mirror and if we choose to look at it and look into it, we’re going to learn a lot. But again, that’s where those other individuals are so incredibly helpful, because without them it just bumbles around in your head. Because without them, it just bumbles around in your head and the natural human reaction is to be statements like well, gen Zs suck, or I can’t stand millennials, or he doesn’t get it. They don’t get it, they’re not good. It’s called self-serving bias.

Scott J. Allen: 47:11

We kind of externalize it and put it on all of them and minimize what we own in the dynamic. We often own something in the dynamic.

Todd Bertsch: 47:20

Right.

Scott J. Allen: 47:21

Right, often we do.

Todd Bertsch: 47:24

Man. That gave me goosebumps. Honestly, I wish I would have done something like that. That is amazing. So quick question yeah, have you ever shared any of this with the kids or not? Yet Is there a point in time where you do? Or is this something after, unfortunately, scott’s gone? Yeah, and it’s there and the kids stumble upon it like holy shit, like this, this is like a goal, like how many? There’s not a lot of people that do something like?

Todd Bertsch: 47:49

that yeah they might have a daily journal or meditation, but, uh, to be intentional about writing a sentence about each one, not just just one kid, but three kids, yeah, honestly, hats off Like that is freaking amazing to me, yeah.

Scott J. Allen: 48:02

Well, again it stemmed from my wife just saying I hope you stay present, so it was my way of.

Todd Bertsch: 48:07

But you took that to a whole other Tried, whole other level.

Scott J. Allen: 48:11

Well, it’s funny because. So you haven’t what Shared it, so you haven’t shared it. Oh well, no, they know, they know that it happens.

Todd Bertsch: 48:17

But they haven’t seen it.

Scott J. Allen: 48:19

No, they haven’t seen it.

Todd Bertsch: 48:19

That’s what I okay.

Scott J. Allen: 48:21

So sometimes I might say hon, what should we say about Emily? Or what should we say about?

Todd Bertsch: 48:24

Will today? Oh, so it’s collaborative. So sometimes it is, it’s not just you, okay.

Scott J. Allen: 48:27

Sometimes it is Sometimes I’ve had their grandmother write an entry for a day.

Todd Bertsch: 48:39

Sometimes I might interview them and I might say, okay, so what’s one word I might say to Will, my son? How do they respond to that? Because I’m just picturing my 12-year-old daughter going come on, dad enough of this positivity happiness manifestation I get it.

Scott J. Allen: 48:49

Yeah. So you know it might be a simple question like what’s your favorite word right now, will? And you know he’ll say onomatopoeia or just something random what’s your favorite color right now, emily? What’s your favorite food? So I might interview him with just a quick question, give him a little snapshot of something. Or I might say what’s a word that comes to mind when you think of your brother, and she’ll say smart, or maybe she’ll give me a smart ass answer and I’ll write that down, you know. So it’s always something a little different. But yeah, maybe we’re traveling in the UK or something, and it will just be okay. Here’s what we did today. So my senses it’ll kind of end when they turn 18. Okay, and, but I don’t know when I’ll give it to them. Just yet I don’t, but it’s, it’s so ingrained, just as it’s the first task of the day.

Todd Bertsch: 49:37

Rarely has it ever Ingrained. Yeah Habit, yeah Right. It all goes back to habits.

Scott J. Allen: 49:43

Yep.

Todd Bertsch: 49:43

And the C word that you said a few times ironically consistency.

Scott J. Allen: 49:48

Yeah, right.

Todd Bertsch: 49:48

James talks about it in Atomic Habits. Everything is about consistency and everything is about patterns and habits. I am a huge.

Scott J. Allen: 49:56

I say it in every episode but I am, and it is, it is truly important and this, this type of stuff growth is all about repetition, it’s all about consistency, yep, and and and getting that feedback. And it’s about you used a word that I love iterating the Kaizen Right. It’s just it’s. Iterating the Kaizen Right. It’s just, it’s, it’s never done. No.

Todd Bertsch: 50:20

It’s never done. You’re not going to check the box. That’s what being a perfectionist, that’s what hoes me up for a long time is. I just wanted to check it off and be done and move on.

Scott J. Allen: 50:28

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 50:29

Right, I’m a task guy. And that is not the way to go, not, not in this model it’s.

Scott J. Allen: 50:39

You got to play simon’s game, the infinite game, and just keep on going and iterating and I think it goes back to leadership and parenting and it goes go to coaching, go to teaching. We could take in a lot of different directions, but I’ve learned so much about so certain phases of parenting. I thought, okay, I got this down, this is locked in, this is the best. But certain phases have kicked my butt, where they start to have an opinion or they start to say back what you think.

Todd Bertsch: 51:04

You got two girls.

Scott J. Allen: 51:05

Yeah, and they’re awesome. I mean they’re incredible and as you get into some of these different phases, I’m learning new things about myself or I’m getting triggered in different ways by certain things. And I think the same thing happens in leadership, because that individual who assumes the role of CEO hasn’t been a CEO before and there is a lot of new learning at that level. There’s a lot of new learning if we choose to hold up the mirror and really pay close attention to it. Right, and I think those leaders have a shot, those leaders who are continually learning, have those thinking partners, are trying really hard to create that psychological safety, that environment where people can bring their voice. They have a better shot. Now, that doesn’t mean they’re going to win, that doesn’t mean we’re always going to have success, but in my opinion, based on talking to people all over the world about this and studying this, those are a couple core, foundational things that like hmm, okay, you probably should have these things in place if you want to play the infinite game and be successful long-term.

Scott J. Allen: 52:13

Sustainable, sustainable.

Todd Bertsch: 52:15

Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, that’s a good segue because you were talking about all these conversations that you’ve had with leaders, not only nationally, internationally. Um, let’s talk about the podcast. Yeah, I mean kudos to you from one podcaster to another to do weekly episodes. It’s a lot of freaking work.

Scott J. Allen: 52:35

I’m a one-man band.

Todd Bertsch: 52:36

Here it is hard. It’s a lot of hard work, commitment being consistent, and you’ve done close to 250 episodes.

Scott J. Allen: 52:46

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 52:47

So 52 weeks a year, four years worth of just crushing it and I highly recommend listeners. If you’re into leadership at any level, check out Scott’s podcast, phronesis. You can find it on all the podcast apps. It’s great, really good conversations. I love listening to it. It’s one of my top leadership podcasts. How do you do it and how have you done it for so many years? I know you said the educational and that’s what I love about it, like just having you on, like we’re friends. I know you, but I did my research and there’s a lot to dig in there. It’s a little project, school project, so I’m constantly learning. I’m forced, whether I want to or not.

Scott J. Allen: 53:33

And I want to, and that’s why you do it Right, cause it’s filling my tank and it’s all good stuff.

Todd Bertsch: 53:39

It’s it’s about personal growth, which I love, so I’m growing and adding to my personal growth, but hopefully inspiring others to do so as well. So yeah, so, just yeah. I wanted to give a shout out to that because it’s you know it’s. It’s really inspiring what you’ve done. Anything you want to talk about the podcast or are you going to continue to do it?

Scott J. Allen: 53:59

Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, so it’s one of my greatest sources of motivation right now. And so you, this is all going to. I’m going to be singing a lot from the same hymnal as you when I say this. But okay, so there’s like seven wins in podcasting, probably 10, but I’m not going to get all 10. So, first I’m learning. Second, I am building relationships. I’m building my network.

Scott J. Allen: 54:28

It’s led to writing projects. It’s led to consulting projects. It’s highlighting the great work and the great thinking of other people. So it’s given me a little bit of a platform and made me a little bit of a hub in the community of kind of leadership, scholars and people who are passionate about that. It’s helped me practice communication, bottom line right, like having conversations and improv-ing. Sometimes I don’t understand the conversation, so how do I get out of this? This is interesting. Where do I go next? Sometimes the guest might be a little bit more difficult, so how do I pull them out and make them feel comfortable? So I’m practicing communication. So there have been so many wins with this one project that for me, yeah, I will continue to do it for sure.

Scott J. Allen: 55:13

I was literally driving here today listening to an episode, and it’s for me. When I listen to, I do the interview and of course I remember the interview. But it’s a little bit like Will Ferrell in old school he gives the speech and he kind of shuts down. I always hear the episode after it’s been edited and that’s where the learning really sinks in for me, Because you’re in the moment it’s hard to digest it, right.

Scott J. Allen: 55:38

So again, and then also it’s helped me just get into conversations like this and I have so much wisdom that has been imparted to me. People say things in episodes and I’m like, oh, that is awesome, I love that phrasing, I’m going to take that Right. So that performance ready phrasing from Amy Elizabeth Fox. It’s like that is so good. Or you know who you are is how you lead. That was said by a guest, Doug Lindsay from the Air Force Academy, and I’m like I love that and that is so. It’s given me all these little nuggets that then I use in presentations. So then I stand up and I’m citing all of the people who said these things. But you know, people walk away saying Scott Allen said this, and I’m like, no, I didn’t, this person said that. But you know, so it has armed me with a whole bunch of conversation pieces as well. So I’ve loved it. There’s so many wins. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes money, it takes all of that.

Todd Bertsch: 56:44

It does it’s a show that a lot of people don’t realize. And there are some crappy ones too where someone just gets a pair of headphones, maybe not even a mic, and just spins it up. And that is the beauty of the internet. And so it can you know you can just go out freedom of speech and say what you want to say, but to do it right, to really have, and at your level and the guests that you’re having, it has to be at this professional level, right, yeah.

Scott J. Allen: 57:08

But it is. It is another. You know I said to build your network, but it does give you access to people that you should have no business. You know, the former prime minister of Greece or the first female president of Croatia? You know they’re zooming in.

Todd Bertsch: 57:24

Who are you right?

Scott J. Allen: 57:25

Yeah, I’m feeling nervous as I’ll get out, you know, to speak with these individuals, it is You’re getting out of your comfort zone. Yes, well that’s another one, that’s another one. So it’s helped me get better at failing and because you’re constantly putting yourself out there to be rejected. And so I’ve gone to Adam Grant, I’ve gone to James Clear, I’ve gone to these individuals, but another fellow podcaster said and I might not get this correct, but he said said and I might not get this correct, but he said I’m not going to let them say no.

Scott J. Allen: 58:00

How does he phrase it? I’m not going to let them say no for me. Basically, he’s like I’m not going to be the, I’m going to ask them and they’re going to say no, right, I’m not going to not do it, not put myself out there and have a no in my mind before they’ve even said it right. I can’t, I can’t phrase that well right now.

Todd Bertsch: 58:18

I get what you’re saying because I’ve had the conversation actually just in the past week about don’t be afraid to ask.

Scott J. Allen: 58:24

Yes, yeah 100%.

Todd Bertsch: 58:25

I’ve always been that way. I feel like if I’m asking, I’m not good enough. Totally Right, that imposter syndrome but what the hell? Who cares?

Scott J. Allen: 58:42

I’m going gonna ask you five times leave me a review.

Todd Bertsch: 58:43

Scott, leave me a review on apple, it’s so hard people.

Scott J. Allen: 58:44

Yep, it’s so hard to get a good review and it’s hilarious, but it’s just time, right, so it’s okay. It’s okay to ask yeah, it is, and and so it’s funny, because I I have not yet had adam grant on, but you will well.

Todd Bertsch: 58:53

Yes manifest that I?

Scott J. Allen: 58:55

I the first time I got just a stock email from kind of someone else and then the second time he actually wrote me and said sorry, I’m too busy, so I’m getting closer.

Todd Bertsch: 59:03

Too busy. Too busy is not a no. That means the door’s open, that means maybe.

Scott J. Allen: 59:11

I was close on. You mentioned Marshall Goldsmith on. You mentioned Marshall Goldsmith. So all of those kinds of you know that’s another learning in all of this is just putting myself out there in a way. Another learning is putting myself out there on the internet in a different way, on LinkedIn and such like. The self promotion piece of all of this that can be internalized by some as, oh, he thinks he’s all that or but but still that can be internalized by some as oh, he thinks he’s all that, but still, we’re going to help you get over that, but still you know what I’m saying?

Todd Bertsch: 59:41

Yeah, no, it is, but you’re a personality, you’re the expert. You got to get you out there.

Scott J. Allen: 59:44

Yeah, but it’s helped me push on some of those areas of myself that I may have been more insecure about or felt less confident in doing Right. So I’m excited for you because it’s so much fun.

Todd Bertsch: 59:58

It is this this is Friday, yeah, and I know you’re at work.

Scott J. Allen: 1:00:03

So am I, I’m at work, right, yeah? Yeah, I mean silly right. I just gained at least five nuggets.

Todd Bertsch: 1:00:14

Hopefully I can remember them Because I can’t take notes while we’re doing the show. But this is great and we can go on and on. So, scott, let’s talk about you, talk a lot about the future of work.

Scott J. Allen: 1:00:23

Yep.

Todd Bertsch: 1:00:24

And my gosh, since COVID, the future of work has been flipped on end. It’s changed dramatically. I think we all agree with that, and depending on who you read, when you read. Actually, Scott’s got a great e-newsletter too weekly. Lots of good nuggets, great curation of leadership content throughout the internet, and there was one that I found on yours a couple weeks ago and I apologize. I should have told you that it was really helpful, but there was an article maybe it was Gallup.

Todd Bertsch: 1:00:56

I think that was talking about just two different viewpoints about coming back to the office right.

Todd Bertsch: 1:01:02

That’s been the topic. I don’t want to spend a ton of time on that because I feel like if we do, we’re going to go down some rabbit holes. But let’s talk a little bit about how that has affected leadership and how maybe you teach or train people about how to be a leader when you don’t see your people in the office every single day. Right, I think there’s probably some pros and cons. I’ve seen both A hundred percent.

Todd Bertsch: 1:01:30

So our workplace, we, I created a style or a program called work your way. I don’t care, as long as you’re working, you can come in the office every day, you can come in part of the time and be a hybrid, or you could stay home and work from home every single day. It’s the way that you want to work. But that creates a lot of challenges as well, and to be a leader and especially those that like to be visible, which is me it’s been a big challenge for me, to be honest. But I’m curious to learn just about your take on that, how the workplace has changed and how leadership needs to pivot and change and evolve with it.

Scott J. Allen: 1:02:10

Okay, one of my favorite quotes is every system is perfectly designed for the results that it achieves. Every system is perfectly designed for the results that it achieves. So Earth. There’s a system in place right now that allows us to be here. That’s awesome, right? Or Chick-fil-A they seem to have a system in place right now that is yielding a certain level of profit and revenue. Have a system in place right now that is yielding a certain level of profit and revenue. Kfc is a different system in place right now. Kfc’s system used to be top of the pile. No longer is it right. So I love this quote, because this quote just kind of it’s harsh and it’s awesome. We have all kinds of systems. That could be your system of retention of employees. Certain systems are yielding engagement of employees back to Gallup. Certain systems are yielding market share and revenue.

Scott J. Allen: 1:03:04

So leaders solve puzzles. That’s what leaders do. They solve puzzles. Now there’s a great Harvard Business Review article called A Leader’s Framework for Decision Making. It’s a little bit older, it’s 2007, but it’s classic.

Scott J. Allen: 1:03:20

And they divide problems that leaders work into four types simple, complicated, complex and chaotic. I’m going to keep chaotic on the side, but that’s like a January 6th. There’s an emergency. It’s Milton, it’s a hurricane. It’s something that we weren’t necessarily expecting, and things are a little chaotic in the beginning and we’re trying. So that’s a type of leadership. September 11th Simple there’s no knowns. There’s answers. Complicated there’s answers, but we’re going to have to call the attorney. We’re going to have to call an expert to get the answer here. But answers do exist.

Scott J. Allen: 1:04:05

A lot of your day, todd, you’re in complexity. As soon as you add a human, you’re in complexity. There’s an infinite number of variables between the two of us, an infinite in our lived histories, our personalities, our knowledge. An infinite number of variables. So if you’re trying to design a team or a high functioning team, well, that’s a complex, adaptive challenge as well.

Scott J. Allen: 1:04:23

Just, there’s no one you can call in the world to say hey, I’ve got Steve, peter, mary and John here. What are the four things I need to do to create a really great team? No one in the world. There’s people who tell you they have the answer, but no one does. That’d be nice. No one in the world there’s people who would tell you they have the answer Right, but no one does. That’d be nice. No one does Same thing with strategy. There’s no one you can call right now in the world to say hey, I want Evolve to increase its market share by 10% in 2025. What are the six steps? Doesn’t exist.

Scott J. Allen: 1:04:50

So back to Kaizen. We’re iterating, we’re learning Right. We’re learning right. So this also gets to a point where I think leaders and vulnerability is an important conversation, because I think sometimes leaders think that they are the person who has to have all the answers, when I would argue, especially in complexity, leaders are the people who elevate the right questions. Okay, we’re moving to a place of work from home. How are we still going to maintain the culture of our organization? What are we going to do? What experiments are we going to run to ensure that this culture stays tight? We’re doing work from anywhere. Work from home, or what was the phrasing that you used.

Scott J. Allen: 1:05:33

Work your way, work your way. I want to have that and I also want us to be a really high functioning team. So what are we going to do to really ensure that we are a high functioning team and then you, as the leader, are elevating the right questions? Back to psychological safety. I have a team of people who are willing to have that conversation and feel like they can put their voice into the space. You’re also asking things like work your way is great, but how are we going to hold each other accountable? So we’re elevating the right questions, if it’s manageable, designing that with the team, and then we’re iterating. Are we achieving our goal? Do we feel like a high functioning team? You’re going to start getting data. The system’s going to start kind of telling you is this working? Is it not working? Are we where we want to be? And oftentimes we want things to be fixed and solved and like perfect over here. It’s not a thing. But are we moving the needle? Are our intervention and our experiments back to Kaizen right? If I want to get the car off the line a little bit quicker, what are some experiments we can run to see if we can actually make that happen? It’s the same thing with teams. It’s the same thing with business development. It’s the same thing with strategy. It’s the same thing with this podcast. It’s the same thing with me trying to increase the listenership of my podcast. I’m running experiments and then I’m paying close attention to the data that’s coming back. I’m running experiments and then I’m paying close attention to the data that’s coming back, and you know so.

Scott J. Allen: 1:06:58

You mentioned the newsletter. My goal this year was to get that newsletter to 6,000. I started at about 3,500. I’m at 4,000 subscribers. Oh, congrats, man. Well, and I’m not at six. It’s almost the end of the year. So I don’t like say, oh, I failed and oh, people don’t want to subscribe to newsletters anymore. I could tell myself that story. But I could also say what are some new experiments I can run? The results aren’t what I want. I’m not there yet. So I have this growth mindset that solutions do exist For Scott to get that newsletter to 10,000 subscribers. Totally, solutions exist, and so there’s a mindset there.

Scott J. Allen: 1:07:45

So for me, that question it kind of doesn’t matter, like the puzzle doesn’t matter, it’s just another puzzle. So it’s how do I design the culture of my organization? How do I develop a high-functioning team? How do I hold my team accountable in a work from home environment. How do I? How do I? How do I? And then, if it’s appropriate, I’m having that conversation with the team, or I have some thinking partners that I’m saying how do I? And they say, well, you could try this, you could do this and you’re running experiments. You’re in that infinite game.

Scott J. Allen: 1:08:19

Back to that piece of the conversation. It’s the same algorithm. So this is a master algorithm of elevate the right question, identify 15, 20, 30 experiments you could run, run them, get the results, figure it out. How did that go? Oh, it worked Great. What else are we going to try? That’s curing cancer. That’s influencing our children. That is work from home. So for me, there’s this master algorithm when it comes to trying to solve complex adaptive challenges. That and it’s basically a variation of the scientific method, but it goes back to that Kaizen right. It’s just iterating, trying, experimenting, getting the data back. It didn’t work, why? What else could we tweak? What could we try? Okay, let’s do that, let’s tackle it that way, and then we’re trying to win. Whatever win means. That could be high functioning team, that could be increased market share.

Todd Bertsch: 1:09:23

Employee retention.

Scott J. Allen: 1:09:24

Employee retention, it could be any of those things. The challenge we as humans often struggle with is and I see this over and over, todd, you’ve come into this as well but it’s tragic when you have a leader say something like well, gen Zs don’t get it, they don’t want to work, so there’s nothing we can do, you’re dead, you’re done, it’s cooked Because you’ve given up working the puzzle. Of course there’s incredible Gen Zs out there. Of course there are people who want to work above and beyond. We’re not finding them right now. What are we going to try differently? Putting an ad in the paper or on, you know, linkedin, or it didn’t work. So what do we try now? To get best in class talent Right. But again, oftentimes we will, as humans, make excuses, kind of externalize it it has nothing to do with us and tell ourselves stories, and oftentimes they kind of are designed it. It has nothing to do with us and tell ourselves stories, and oftentimes they kind of are designed to take us off the hook.

Scott J. Allen: 1:10:23

Ah, people don’t want to be part of newsletters no, yeah, that’s the, that’s the easy road, that’s the easy road, but I think the the the real leaders, and I think they stick with them if it’s important to them. I got to put that caveat in there. Sometimes I might not care, so it’s like not a big deal to me, but I kind of love the puzzle of huh. How do I get my LinkedIn connections to 15,000 in a fairly authentic way? How do I increase the listenership of the podcast, the subscription of the newsletter? Those are little, they’re puzzles and they’re fun. My daughter and my wife, they love Sudoku and Wordle and the New York Times puzzles. I love these types of puzzles, but it’s just another puzzle. So that’s how I think about it. I don’t know if that no it does.

Todd Bertsch: 1:11:14

It resonates with me, I love it, and I think that the key word that you keep saying is experiment, and the one thing that goes, that’s tied to the hip with experimentation, is there is a good chance you will fail. Yes, you have to be open to the possibility that you may fail, but that’s when you get back up Will and you learn you will fail.

Scott J. Allen: 1:11:40

You will fail. Yeah, I mean yes you’re right.

Todd Bertsch: 1:11:41

You will fail If you’re continually.

Scott J. Allen: 1:11:44

Yes, some of them are not Practicing and testing experimenting.

Todd Bertsch: 1:11:46

Yes, you’re going to fail, but you have to be okay with that.

Scott J. Allen: 1:11:51

A hundred percent, a lot of. If we failed. I’m vulnerable, I have to admit. I didn’t know. Well, for some, yes, yes, I 100% agree. Some leaders, they can’t handle that. They can’t handle being vulnerable, being wrong, not having the answer, that ego and that imposter syndrome and all of those things.

Todd Bertsch: 1:12:12

That’s where you get stuck. At good, you can’t get to great right, 100% Good to great.

Scott J. Allen: 1:12:18

Yeah, well, and so I love what you just said there, because, yeah, you have to, and there’s a beautiful clip of Jeff Bezos online where he talks a lot about this. He’s like look, if you’re experimenting, you’re going to fail. There’s cancer docs literally down the road right now who have spent their whole adult life experimenting and trying to move the needle on this thing called cancer and failing forward to use a john maxwell that because it’s iterating right, it’s iterating, and not all of those iterations, not all of those experimentations are going to work, or those experiments are going to work, but that’s the gig, that’s the game Now. Do we want to have massive big failures? No, but are we failing small and are we failing fast and are we learning and capturing that learning? Of course, we don’t want to fail and make the same mistakes over and over.

Scott J. Allen: 1:13:11

That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about if I own a store let’s say it’s a car dealership and we’re not getting best in class Gen Zs, well, what else are we going to try? What is it about our culture that doesn’t attractive to a Gen Z? Maybe that model of what was in 1995 isn’t appropriate for 2020. Maybe we’re part of the problem. Huh, Interesting. Hold up the mirror Right, and it’s interesting. Just be open, yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 1:13:47

Just be open.

Scott J. Allen: 1:13:48

Yeah.

Todd Bertsch: 1:13:49

So that’s how.

Scott J. Allen: 1:13:50

I think about the answer to that question yeah, and really a lot of other. The puzzles, whatever they are.

Todd Bertsch: 1:13:54

Yeah, the puzzle metaphor it is Every day is is a puzzle, call it a fire, whatever. You just have to be open. I you know my whole mentality and this goes back to a program I went through. Positive intelligence is all about finding the gift and opportunity at every scenario, every situation and when you come to it with an open mind, no assumptions, and you find there is a gift If you look hard enough there is a gift.

Todd Bertsch: 1:14:18

Yes, and if you’re open to it, then things are going to be great, you’re going to be successful, right?

Scott J. Allen: 1:14:24

Oh, then it’s just a matter of time. It’s a matter of that consistency, that persistence, and then you will chip away the person who’s stuck in. Well, there’s no good Gen Zs out there, they’ll be stuck. Yes, there are none for you, You’re done.

Todd Bertsch: 1:14:39

You’re done. Yeah, eventually you will lose your team, lose your people and you will not move up the chain.

Scott J. Allen: 1:14:45

Or you’ll stay stuck.

Todd Bertsch: 1:14:47

If you’re the owner, then you’re just going to be putting in 120 hours a week and basically creating an expensive job for yourself, because you’re not going to allow, you’re not going to empower, you’re not going to grow your team. You’re not going to teach them your job?

Scott J. Allen: 1:15:01

Yes, right, so you’re, just you’re just again building.

Todd Bertsch: 1:15:04

Tony Robbins said this you’re building yourself an expensive job, scott. Wow, man, like I I wish I was able to take notes. I’m going to listen back to this. Like I feel like I just went to school, brother.

Scott J. Allen: 1:15:17

It’s funny, like I love talking about it.

Todd Bertsch: 1:15:20

Obviously you’ve spent your whole career.

Scott J. Allen: 1:15:21

And I’m learning too while we’re talking, so that’s super helpful.

Todd Bertsch: 1:15:25

But it’s not about me. That’s one thing I learned about being, you know, the host. This is about you and I feel like I know what I’ve learned and I’m constantly learning about leadership. But, man, you brought up some really great points that I hope our listeners take away.

Todd Bertsch: 1:15:40

We’ll have a ton of stuff, so I want to collab with you on show notes because, there’s a ton of links to books or quotes or even your podcast that you mentioned that I’d like our listeners to have easy access to man. This is just so good, so you offer so many different things. You have the podcast, so please check that out. You also do consulting, you’re a keynote speaker, you do tons of writing and you offer these great leading retreats. You’ve worked with a lot of really great companies. That’s a very impressive list and we won’t go through them all, but you can go to Scott’s site and see them.

Todd Bertsch: 1:16:17

I mean, these are some big name companies, especially here in Northeast Ohio. We have some big ones. Yeah, if somebody’s interested in learning more about you or potentially having you do a keynote speech for them, or having you come out and do a workshop for their leadership team or hold a retreat, what’s the best way for them to do that for?

Scott J. Allen: 1:16:37

their leadership team or hold a retreat. What’s the best way for them to do that? So, scottjallennet, okay, great way to find me and kind of connect into the newsletter. Please subscribe.

Todd Bertsch: 1:16:44

Yeah, please do. I’m trying to get to 6,000.

Scott J. Allen: 1:16:47

Let’s help this guy out. So this is an experiment, this is Absolutely and we’ll have it in the show notes too scottjallennet or LinkedIn.

Todd Bertsch: 1:16:57

I’m on LinkedIn quite a bit, you are.

Scott J. Allen: 1:17:00

So I love that platform, and that’s another great source of learning too.

Todd Bertsch: 1:17:12

It is, it really is, and it’s funny how it’s kind of stayed. I wondered for a moment if it was going to veer into too personal and into the Facebook.

Scott J. Allen: 1:17:15

Instagram lane oh my gosh, I’m so happy it has stayed.

Todd Bertsch: 1:17:18

I think there’s a good balance and people notice that. Yeah, a few people that maybe push the boundary, but I like a little personality in there every now and then. You know so man, we’re going to do this again.

Scott J. Allen: 1:17:30

Yes absolutely.

Todd Bertsch: 1:17:31

I am jacked. I’m stoked about this conversation.

Scott J. Allen: 1:17:34

Well, and I’d love to have you on mine, so let’s set that up.

Todd Bertsch: 1:17:37

Yeah, I don’t feel I was nervous about having you on this show. I can’t imagine going on your show with the types of leaders you had on there. But no, I’d be honored to do that I’m humbled that you just spent a couple hours of your day to come here and be on our show. Leadership is a very important part of our show personal growth leadership. So having you on and I think we just touched on so many different things, lots of takeaways.

Scott J. Allen: 1:18:01

And hopefully it’s kind of, as I’ve studied this topic, they become one in the same. You know, there’s a guest I had on who you should have. Better humans, better performance.

Todd Bertsch: 1:18:12

Like.

Scott J. Allen: 1:18:14

I think if you’re a human, hopefully you’re growing and maturing and developing. If you’re a leader, hopefully you’re growing and maturing and developing. I mean, it’s hard to have one without the other right, it really is.

Todd Bertsch: 1:18:24

And once you stop learning, you stop leading. Yeah, right, yeah, I mean, that’s what it’s really all about.

Scott J. Allen: 1:18:31

So Yep.

Todd Bertsch: 1:18:32

Well, thank you, my friend.

Scott J. Allen: 1:18:33

Cool, this has been awesome. Thank you, sir.

Todd Bertsch: 1:18:35

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. You are on your way to growth, transformation and joy. If you find this episode helpful, please like and share with your friends and, by all means, please leave us a review. You can also view the show notes and subscribe to the bullet newsletter at toddbertsch.com. Remember real change takes time. Start small and watch that growth take shape.